Friday, January 11, 2008

Guest Blogger: Paul Grabill

Paul Grabill serves as the Lead Pastor of State College AG, in State College PA. Paul also functions as the Asst. Superintendent of the Penn-Del District.

Like many credential holders, I have become a loyal reader of FutureAG blog. There's not been anything like it since the short-lived "Agora" magazine back in the 1970's. I have appreciated the openness and candor, and even the possibility for people to post anonymously (an option I have not [yet!] chosen:)).

More recently, I have been most interested in the outcome of the poll on Spirit Baptism. This has been a matter of some degree of theological reflection throughout our history (certainly my history) and one wonders if the issue is again surfacing for open consideration. If so, there are many organizational and spiritual dynamics to consider, not the least of which is ethical.

While I personally come down on the classical pentecostal position regarding Spirit Baptism and glossolalia (simply because I personally have not been able to find a cogent way to theologically parse out alternative perspectives), my purpose in sharing my thoughts is not to defend that position, but rather to examine deeper and more treacherous issues.

The poll results showed that there were many who anonymously indicated that (1) They are a credential holder in the Assemblies of God (and, by definition, have indicated on their annual credential renewal form that they adhere to and proclaim what is stated in our Statement of Fundamental Truths), yet (2) Find themselves at variance with our stated position, with some even going so far as to say that there is no relationship whatsoever between Spirit Baptism and glossolalia.

More to the point of this post, I have read postings and comments dealing with ecclesiastical "fear" and "abuse of power." As both a pastor and a district official, I have read such comments with ambivalence. On the one hand, I, too, want an environment where people can be totally honest. I personally love academic "give and take." On the other hand, in 'real life' that environment must be lubricated with mutual respect and integrity, else any dialogue is doomed to fail.

For those who desire change on our initial evidence stance, personally, I am happy to hear their argument (hey, I'm in a college town--I listen to everything:)), yet there seems to be a Catch-22 in the system. Those advocating change cannot be heard (especially in a formal, governmental setting) if they don't have credentials. Yet, if they are perceived as people who have lied on their credential renewal forms, many, if not most, ears to whatever they would have to say will immediately close. Any raised voices to try to gain an open hearing (charging others with being "closed-minded") will simply be met with "get the beam out of your own eye, brother," whether or not that thought is openly verbalized.

I simply don't know how those advocating change can answer that charge. How can one accuse the A/G with a lack of courage in facing tough issues if the ones advocating change can't muster the courage to resign their credentials when faced with a clear issue of integrity? What personal and/or social forces keep them in the A/G? A choice to focus on the areas with which they agree? Institutional loyalty? Family heritage? Their professional standing? Their income?

None of these reasons will move the hearts of those adhering to a traditional posture, and those in "authority" will wonder if they are doing their jobs to not challenge those who are being less than honest in their credential renewals. Here again is the Catch-22. Those officials actively enforcing integrity will simply reinforce the perceptions of "fear" and "abuse of power" by those who are already afraid of being "found out."

I wish I could propose a solution here (I've been actively praying and thinking about this), but I know that we cannot continue to go down the road of winking at those who say one thing and sign another. How is that any less sinful than a lack of integrity in areas of sexual morality or finances? A tolerance of a lack of theological integrity is exactly what has happened in the mainline denominations. On this and other issues, we cannot continue to go down the same road others have gone and expect to arrive at a different destination.

Some may find this hard to read. Am I advocating a "purge?" Not at all (I'm hoping for a more peaceful and loving solution), but this I know. God cannot bless us personally and corporately if we are not people of integrity. He can bless Baptists, Presbyterians, Wesleyans, EVFreers, Vineyardites, and, yes, even Classical Pentecostals, but not if we are living in personal dishonesty and fear as well as corporate confusion.

Being totally honest, regardless of the consequences, is who Jesus was and who we are called to be. I believe trusting that God will care for us and direct us regardless of what anyone does with our credentials (or even what happens to the Assemblies of God) will please the Lord and bring His favor--on all of us.

And that's my heart's desire.

390 comments:

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Pastor Jeremy said...

Uhh...that was awesome. Very cool, Brother Grabill. Very honest, and VERY CHALLENGING. I agree with you, we need to be honest and open with each other and ourselves if we desire to please God and seek His favor and success.

I think it would be powerful, beautiful, and slightly chaotic, but what are the chances of a "Council of Springfield?" Is it time for such an event?

Historically, every other movement HAS had to revisit its doctrine every 100-years. The A/G is numerically due. Is it time for such an event, and will it HELP us?

George P. Wood said...

Every year, I sign my ministerial renewal form in good conscience, having checked the box regarding baptism in the Spirit. But I also believe that it is necessary to revisit our doctrinal statement from time to time to see whether or not we could better express what we believe. I would be interested in hearing some ideas about how AG ministers can in good faith both subscribe to our current doctrinal statement and work for its revision.

Lane Douglas said...

Let me split this into two posts to make t more readable. First, my personal stance on this... then, a wider response.

MY PERSONAL STANCE

When it comes to our doctrinal statements, specifically with initial evidence, I find a situation where, in a weird, ironic fashion I find it harder to agree with the spirit of the credential renewal form rather than the letter of it. (Usually in life I find that the opposite is true.) Let me illustrate...

I am asked each year whether I still hold to the 16 Fundamental Truths which, as we all know, really has emphasis on #7 and #8. I say that because if we were to look further down the list to the number of pastors that differ with the AG stances on the end times (and yet sign the renewal form), I think your ethical dilemma would go through the roof. But no one really is that concerned about that since our opinions about differing eschatologies are far more lenient than our stances on pneumatology.

Back to my point, though. When I consider the "letter" of the doctrines, I ask myself whether I agree that tongues is the "initial physical evidence." Since there is no comma between those two words,I place emphasis on the word "physical" and find myself in agreement with the doctrine. This allows room for my personal opinion that there may be quite a few OTHER evidences that come first but which are not physical. As such, I find myself tending to think that J. Roswell Flower was onto something with his opinion that tongues could possibly exist as a "delayed evidence."

However, I am also aware that, based on having heard Tom Trask (and others) personally say it to me and having read their articles, the "spirit" of the doctrine is that tongues is not only the INITIAL but also the IMMEDIATE evidence. And so, at times, I feel as if I am in the ethical bind you described.

But, as I noted above with Flower, I am aware that our founding fathers were, themselves, not fully in agreement on this issue and so I re-sign rather than resign with confidence that I am in agreement with the way it is written... although not necessarily with how others interpret it.

Lane Douglas said...

THE WIDER ISSUE

All that being said, Paul... I think the larger issue is not with young pastors finding small discrepancies with the 16 FT. Instead, the problem lies with a movement that wants to enforce regulations like a denomination yet allowing local pastors full autonomy as if we are only a "cooperative fellowship."

I think the same ethical issue should be raised with all the resolutions passed at a GC. If we, as a movement, declare that women should be allowed into leadership... than a local pastor should not have the license to take issue with that and should comply.

Yet upon asking a leading, highly-respected official in the AG that very question, I was told that the beauty of the autonomy in the AG is that it "celebrates the entrepreneurial spirit of the Senior Pastor." I was stunned. How can we take issue with pastors who want to research and develop our 16 FT while fully embracing their right to dismiss any and every resolution passed at GC?

Your question is a GREAT ONE. One that you articulated well. But the root of the issue exposes a major flaw in a movement that wants to enforce things like a denomination but chooses to still act as a cooperative fellowship.

Glen Davis said...

We have it easier than some do in other denominations. In the PCA, for example, there is much less room for deviance than in our movement. So let me go on record as saying that I'm grateful we have as much wiggle room as we do.

So the question seems to be how can you require doctrinal compliance and also allow people the freedom to critique doctrine?

Part of the solution lies in the following observation: you can agree with a statement and not think it should be a law. So it's possible to fully subscribe to initial evidence as currently defined and simultaneously believe that we should reword our definition.

I suspect most doctrinal critique that is accepted comes about this way.

I'll give a personal example: I think we're too nitpicky about eschatology. 4 of our 16 statements are detailed assertions about the end of the world!

When I think about how wrong the scholars of Jesus' day were about the details of his first coming, it makes me not want to get too dogmatic about the details of his second coming.

So even though I sign off on our statement of faith every year, I'd like to see it broadened so that more people can align with us in good conscience.

That's one means by which we can get theological critique from within.

George P. Wood said...

Lane:

I think you're drawing a false dichotomy between "denomination" and "cooperative fellowship." To see why this is the case, ask yourself a simple question: Could a Mormon church join the Assemblies of God? Answer: No. Why? Because it could not "cooperate" or be in "fellowship" with other churches with whom it has a fundamental disagreement in doctrine. Every community of faith, in other words--whether you call it a "denomination" or a "cooperative fellowship"--has certain boundary markers that define (denominate) whether one is "in" or "out" of the community. Enforcing those boundary markers does not necessarily violate the spirit of cooperation. Rather, it assumes that there are ideas, values, and practices which both parties are willing to cooperate about.

Having said that, I agree with you that it's odd (contradictory, inconsistent, unethical?) for churches to be allowed to opt out of recognizing women ministers. On the other hand, I think there is a difference between "doctrine" and "order" within the church, with issues of doctrine requiring more uniformity than issues of order. But that's just my personal opinion (about uniformity, not women's ministry).

George

Lane Douglas said...

George...

The clarification is good. I'm using the wrong words to attempt and define what I see as ecclesiastical enforcement in mainline churches as opposed to what we have which is more or less a "hoped for" ideal of uniform agreement.

I'm not sure I agree with you, though, on the distinction of differing importance between "order" and "doctrine." Hopefully the former is developed out of a foundational conviction of the latter. In other words, we pass a resolution stating that our movement will recognize women in leadership BECAUSE we have a conviction that the Scriptures call for it.

For a pastor to say "I do not agree and choose to be different" means that they are placing themselves outside the boundaries of what we, as a "fellowship," have officially declared to be a part of our theological DNA.

If we do make distinctions between "order" and "doctrine,"... then what need is there for a GC and a resolution process? That would mean, based on our system of autonomy for GC-Affiliated churches, that resolutions become little more than "suggestions." If that is true... then attending a GC becomes an incredibly expensive futile exercise. (In my opinion)

Paul said...

Lane, I agree with you that we've had more theological attrition/regression on matters of eschatology than we have in matters of pneumatology, but there is more heartburn, and (now with the unscientific blog poll) more data on the latter than the former. My guest post was prompted by the FutureAG poll on Spirit Baptism. Maybe the brethren will do one on eschatology as well.

It appears to me that there are serious reservations within our Fellowship regarding a full 1/3 of our tenets of faith.

My bottom line is that we cannot go on like this. The longer we go, the more *integrity* regression we will have.

I am praying for an answer that is creative and constructive and doesn't scapegoat people who have honest questions and/or differences, but rather allows people to openly be who they are deep down inside.

Pastor Jeremy said...

So again I ask: Is it time for a "Council of Springfield" to bring clarity to our movement?

I agree with all 16FT, so I'm cool staying AG. But if someones else does not agree with the 16 FT, then I would ask why be an A/G minister and/or an A/G church?

I ask this not with a spirit of antagonism, but curiosity.

Lane Douglas said...

Hi Paul...

Thanks for the reply. And I didn't say it when I first responded, but thanks for taking the time to write. I am consistently encouraged and inspired to continue posting when I see people like yourself and George Wood, Sr. willing to read and dialog this blog. So thanks.

I agree wholeheartedly with your last comment regarding seeking for a solution that is constructive, not constrictive. I also agree that our movement cannot keep seeing the regression that we are. I personally have had three friends, all between the ages of 26 and 35, resign the AG just in the last 12 months.

My concern, though, was that (as I read it) your post seemed to take more aim at those openly admitting their reservations about our theology than anything else. I may have read it wrong, and if I did, forgive me ... but it sounded as if you were saying that one of the reasons God may not be blessing our movement is because people are essentially "lying" when they sign their credential renewal form each year. Since He cannot look overlook this, I thought you were saying, He cannot do what He would like among us since we are not people of integrity.

This is what I was taking issue with. Despite whether there might be more heartburn around a certain issue... I don't think God sees it in shades. If a minister signs their form and yet does not agree with #8, well... you're right. They are wrong for doing for that. But if another minister chooses to distance themselves from any of the latter 4... regardless of how much research we have on them ... God would still see it as a lack of integrity and, thus, according to your opinion ... withhold His blessings.

Would you be in agreement with this statement?

Paul said...

Lane, thank you for your questions and for venturing into this minefield. Someone has to. I'm doubting that this stream will set any new records in comments.:)

First, regarding eschatology. It seems to me that we have always given some wiggle room in this area with expressions like 'pan-trib' or 'pan-mil' (i.e., "Trust in Jesus and it will all 'pan' out"). So I don't mind someone holding these areas lightly, however, it seems to me that if they hold contrary positions (e.g., preterist, amil or post mil), then there is a real integrity issue. There is a major difference between light agreement and light or heavy disagreement.

I, for one, have always wondered why the 16FT were all at the same 'level' of authority. It seems to me that "The Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ" trumps the "The Ministry" every time.

Now, back to pneumatology. I don't think is is my role to determine how much wiggle room there is in our current statements. I think that's up to the Credentials Committee/EPs who hear arguments (on every issue) probably far beyond what I have considered, so I won't be presumptious enough (this time!) to try to say where the 'line' is.

That being said (even though the main point of my post was not to say where the line is, but to deal with the Catch-22 of perceptions that those advocating change are going to have to deal with), I did indeed make the point that the lower one goes on the initial blog poll, it seems to me, the greater the concern about personal integrity.

Maybe someone can explain to me how a position of "glossolalia has nothing to do with Spirit Baptism" is consistent with our 16FT, but I can't seem to get my head around that.

So, yes, I think it is legitimate to raise the integrity issue (in reality, and not just in regard to perception), at least for some of our anonymous credential holders.

I really don't want to cause anybody any heartburn, but rather to try to articulate the dilemma in which we find ourselves.

In some ways, now that the cat is out of the bag, I do pray, in some way, this contribution is helpful, particularly in encouraging those advocating change to put themselves in the shoes of those defending the status quo.

Anonymous said...

Has anyone ever thought of simply going back to the wording Luke uses in the book of Acts to describe this doctrine, and leaving it at that? Why do we have to insist on parsing the doctrine beyond the biblical articulation? Jesus promised the Spirit’s arrival; the book of Acts records multiple times when groups experienced the promised Holy Spirit; the Church received empowerment, people were saved, delivered and healed; no one mentioned the initial physical evidence doctrine. Those who lean more toward biblical theology could live with this; those who desire a more systematic or dogmatic approach would be less satisfied.

I’m not sure Jesus himself would know how to adequately define the dynamic of Spirit baptism (or for that, matter speaking in tongues: real languages? unlearned babble?). And I’m not sure it matters in the least whether we figure it out and articulate it with such razor-sharp precision: e.g., are more people going to get healed, delivered, saved, baptized, discipled because of our doctrinal specificity?

There is a valid and age-old question when it comes to doctrinal considerations: If the Bible does not ask the question (“what’s the initial physical evidence of Spirit baptism”), perhaps we ought to resist the temptation both to ask, and to answer the question. And more importantly, we should resist the urge to purge from our ranks people who steadfastly affirm the full empowerment of the Holy Spirit, yet cannot figure out how one Kansas pastor’s question in 1901 became the definitive definition for millions of 21st century Spirit-filled believers.

George P. Wood said...

Anonymous:

It seems to me that the reason we use non-biblical terminology in our doctrinal statements is that doctrine acts as a kind of interpretive key to our understanding of the Bible. For example, the Bible teaches that God is one; that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; that the Father is not the Son, the Son not the Spirit, and the Spirit not the Father. The Bible itself doesn't give us terminology to explain how all these realities can cohere logically, so early church fathers invented terms: Trinity, essence, person to explain how the biblical terminology didn't contradict itself or entail absurdities.

George

dean said...

George,

I think you have given the classic example to Anonymous' response and your statement can hardly be refuted. However, church history also clearly shows how the church has created tenets like infant baptism, elevation of the host (Transubstantiation/consubstantiation), and many other heresies. I think Anonymous makes a great point because clearly we can see how problematic it is to come up with our own creations which do not show a consistent application of Scripture in light of the totality of Scripture. Your assertion that our doctrine is a key to our interpretive method seems misplaced. The Bible forms our doctrine and is the absolute authority of creating doctrine. We as humans have been exposed to various thoughts and schools of influence and this colors how we decide our own interpretive method, however, that does not change the absolute truth of Scripture. No where in the Bible is there any kerygmatic statement affirming the initial physical evidence as the only and absolutely defining indicator of baptism in the Spirit. Paul and others certainly had opportunity, however, no such clear guidance exists. I think a much more honest examination needs to be made regarding Anonymous' statements on the influence of Parham and a much deeper understanding to the origins of the movement that you elluded to in one of your postings. I still am trying to "uncover" what exactly the mysterious puzzle of the development of Pentacostalism as it rose from Lacy to Wesley to Topeka and exploding at Asuza Street. I have yet to read a completely satisfying history that indicates any substantive roots beyond that time...which is why I think a large number of people question the doctrine outside of Pentacostalism...that takes us back to an early understanding of Acts as being an authoritative statement on initial evidence. Wayne Grudem is the editor of a book titled "Are Miraculous Gifts for Today?" that I think would be a good read for anyone who is still mulling through this issue.

dean said...

Paul,

I think you have certainly brought up a valid point by questioning the integrity of those who question the doctrine as it exists within the Fundamental Truths and still hold credentials. I do not hold credentials precisely because I have not been able to personally have complete acceptance of the 16 Truths. I, like you, struggle with making a heirarchy that says accepting Christ's diety falls at the same level as initial evidence, especially when we then seperate into 4 essential truths.

However, I think there are a number of people who can in good conscience have differing views and still hold credentials. I hope that they put forth those explanations. In large part, I would assert that your personal call can trump any "absolutes" put forth by the denomination. I doubt you would find a significant number of ministers in any denomination that would say they hold to the letter of every belief espoused by their affiliate denomination. I think Dr. Wood had made some great statements about softening the tone of the initial evidence debate and he would make a big stride if he moved away from the current system that requires an anuual signing of acceptance to the Truths. Accountability must exist and there must be an evaluation of how closely pastors hold to the points that are absolutely essential, but there could be a much broader "freedom of the senior pastor" in this area.

ItalEsca said...

I'm an italian reader with a great interest for this blog and also a great interest for the escathology of Assemblies of God. I was surprised just some years oag reading in internet that Assemblies of God of America don't accept any view different from dispensationalism and from pre-tribulationism.

Now I ask:

1)May we do an analogous survey about escatology just like the last one about pneumatology? I think it would be useful to see how greater is the issue about escatology among AoG pastors, much greater than for pneumatology.

2) in italian Assemblies of God at the best of my knowledge I know that a pastor can think something different (for example about predestination or escatology) and keep it for himself. So, for example, you can believe that the tongue aren't the INITIAL evidence of the baptism and keep this idea for yourself. You will teach in your church about salvation like other AoG pastors, about baptism in the water like the other AoG pastors, about fullness of Spirit like the other AoG pastors but you will be a little more quiet about tongues... was I clear?

I'm not sure that this is exaclty the Italian approach, but it could be a half-solution.

Haven't something like this in America?

Sorry for my bad english... thank you...

George P. Wood said...

Dean:

Thank you for your reply! I'm a bit confused, however, by your remarks that, on the one hand, my comments "can hardly be refuted," yet on the other hand, that they are misplaced.

I'm also concerned that you have labeled infant baptism and transubstantiation/consubstantiation "heresies." Errors, yes; but heresies? If they are, then Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, and Jonathan Edwards are all, to one degree, or another heretics, which I find difficult to accept.

You wrote: "The Bible forms our doctrine and is the absolute authority of creating doctrine." If you mean by that that the Bible is ultimate and infalliable rule of Christian faith and practice, then you're quite right. But we need help from tradition, reason, and experience to interpret the Bible, don't we? After all, the Bible nowhere offers an canonical list of books to be contained within it. The Bible does not translate itself. The Bible does not perform textual criticism on itself, deciding between which of the multitudinous manuscript variants are most likely original. The Bible also does not always explain itself. That is why, it seems to me, that has always been a debate between the predestination wing of Christianity and the free will wing.

Doctrinal statements, then, are a fallible attempt to make coherent sense of the Bible's teaching. They are second-order speech, merely human speech. The Bible on the other hand is first-order speech, God's own Word in human words.

For the above and a variety of other reasons, we can never get away from the very human attempt to construct accurate doctrinal statements. Nor, I should quickly add, from the need to occasionally revise and reform them.

George

jdarlack said...

Thank you for this guest post, Bro. Grabill. I appreciate your comments. I grew up in the A/G (with CA's, Royal Rangers, BibleQuiz, AIM trips, etc.). I have been thoroughly enculturated in the A/G. I have attended an A/G Bible college, and even now I attend an A/G church. As I've heard one pastor describe himself, "I bleed 'AG-positive' blood." (though some would say that my AG-positive blood has been tainted by education at a non-A/G seminary. (^: ) Even though I've been thoroughly enculturated in A/G culture, I've come to disagree with the flash-points of A/G doctrine (eschatology & pneumatology). I feel a calling in my life to study and teach God's word, but because I disagree with with elements of the 16 Fundimentals, I am in a bind, feeling that "catch 22" you mentioned. God "grew me up" in an A/G environment. I am thoroughly Pentecostal in practice and ethos, but because of the finer points of theology, I cannot seek ministerial credentials in the "denomination of my birth." (Not that I believe that being born into any church makes one a Christian, but I hope you get my point.) Can there be a place for me in the theological discussions of the A/G if I cannot be a credential holder? How do I help effect positive change in the denomination that I love?

I've been torn between two poles for some time because of the very dilemma you address, and I very much understand why brothers and sisters would "sign on the dotted line" even though they don't necessarily accept either the spirit or the letter of all sixteen. I planned to do so throughout Bible college (where mentors and friends encouraged me to basically sign with my fingers crossed). I rationalized my intent with postmodern word games and redefinitions of "initial evidence" and "subsequence" (along the lines of Simon Chan's Pentecostal Theology). I also discovered that even at the founding of the A/G there were differences of opinion on the matter (e.g., J. Roswell Flower's distinctives). Still, I knew that I was bucking against what many in current A/G leadership think to be both the spirit (Spirit?) and the letter of the law. A couple of years ago I decided to go with my conscience and do what I could to move the discussion forward without A/G credentials.

I don't believe that my decision to not get A/G credentials has made even a tiny ripple in A/G pond. I wonder, however, if wide-spread conscientious refusal (or even withdrawal) of A/G credentials by many qualified (e.g. theologically educated, and called-to-ministry) "A/G positive" women and men would make enough of a ripple to take notice. While in good standing, these "A/G positives" could not attend General Council as credential holders, but they could potentially attend as lay delegates (depending on the specifics of their local assembly's bylaws). Also, because local assemblies have autonomy, it is not necessary for a pastor of an A/G congregation to hold A/G credentials. If the "conscientious objecting" pastor had a frank discussion with the lay leadership of her particular congregation and it was agreed upon, that minister could, I believe, withdraw her credentials and retain the pastorate. This perhaps may be an "honest" way forward that takes advantage of the A/G being "cooperative fellowship" of autonymous congregations.

I don't believe that my decision is the best decision for every called-to-minister individual with disagreements with the "Fundamentals." But, I wonder if this would send a clear and honest message to our superiors in district and national leadership that the A/G is bigger than what the sixteen points define.

ItalEsca said...

3) I forgot a last question: may we know which denominations the three friends of Lane Douglas choosed after they leaved AoG? I think it could be interesting.

Paul F. said...

This has been a very interesting and enjoyable thread to read. I appreciate the tone and thoughtfulness of each response and will do my best to contribute in a helpful way.

I'm going to focus on the "integrity" question because it seemed to be the main worry of original post. It is also an issue I deal with on a yearly basis. I realize that it wouldn't be hard for anyone in my home district to figure out who I am, and some of what I say may lead to 'trouble' on my behalf. But, to paraphrase (somewhat tongue in cheek) a man greater and more courageous than I'll ever be, "here I sit, and I can do no other".

First, I think we need to parse out what we mean by 'believe'. It seems to me that many in our tradition (and the general evangelical culture) take "I believe X" to mean something like "I have no doubt that X is true." So when someone asks if I believe in the initial physical evidence (FT 8), they mean if I have any doubts as to the truth of FT 8. If so, then I must check "No." If we consider this for a moment, we'll realize that we almost never use 'believe' in that way in other contexts. If someone asks, "Do you believe OU will beat West Virginia" that doesn't meant I have no doubt (especially if I just learned that 5 starters will not play). I may now have some doubt, and want to have a candid conversation later, yet still believe she is faithful.

So, what I think most people mean in other contexts when they say "I believe X" is something like "My degree of belief that it is true is greater than my degree of belief that it is false." There may be cases where the difference is vast (e.g. believing there is life on Mars versus believing there is not life on Mars) and cases where the margin is much slimmer (believing the Colts beat the Chargers versus believing the Chargers beat the Colts).

With that in mind, I think we should consider, concerning FT 8, if 51% to 49% (in favor of its truth) is sufficient for checking yes. If it is, then that allows for a great deal of questioning and wondering about its truth while still remaining one's integrity when the renewal form comes in the mail. What's really interesting is that this understanding of "I believe X" can help account for a fluctuation in one's noetic structure. Some days my belief that FT 8 is true is much lower than other days. Some days it probably even would slip into disbelief. Then, after thought and prayer, it'll slide back up. Most of the year, I'd say my belief in the truth of FT 8 resides somewhere in the 55-60% range. Many individuals I know that have similar questions/concerns would probably also rather express their belief in the truth of FT 8 along these lines.

Second, I think we need to keep in mind the central role that one's theological upbringing plays in his overall life. A few previous commentors have noted how near and dear the AG is to their lives. If they were to leave it, or turn in their credentials, there would be a significant restructuring forced upon their lives. To some, like me, it is better to remain in a "fellowship" that they love and work to change the elements of it that creates the cognitive dissonances (e.g. the wording of the baptism doctrines, the end times doctrines, or even just the position papers on gambling or alcohol use) than to leave it as soon as I come to believe something slightly different.

Third (and not so much about the "integrity" question), perhaps we should question the insistence on having unchanging fundamental truths. As many have noted above, individuals with greater minds than ours have believed doctrines quite sincerely that we now believe to be false. What makes us think we're the ones that finally got everything right? Did the founders (and subsequent leaders) realize that by setting up 16 Fundamental Truths that are "off-limits" it is implied that those truths are without error? They may not have intended this, but it seems to me to be clearly implied, especially when one considers the refusal of dialogue concerning their truth. Our (the AG) position concerning the Fundamental Truths is not really any different from the Catholic position concerning its teaching -- "Either you believe these essentials or we kick you out." Of course the content of belief and manner of dismissal is different, but the substance seems to be the same. Perhaps in my late night thoughts I'm being uncharitable, but if so, I'm sure the fellow FutureAG bloggers will point that out.

Again, this is a great discussion in which I'm happy to take part. Cheers!

Paul F. said...

Blasted Blogger! I ended up with a 'post' when I wanted a 'preview'. Please ignore the random sentence at the end of the third paragraph (I changed examples and forgot to delete that part). Sorry.

George P. Wood said...

Paul F.:

I see your analytical philosophical training at work in your comments. I always get a kick out of sentences like, "I believe that X." It brings back the good old college days and endless discussions about justification, warrant, certainty, doubt, and other epistemological issues.

Nostalgia aside, I largely agreed with the points you were making. However, several things about this sentence rubbed me the wrong way: "Our (the AG) position concerning the Fundamental Truths is not really any different from the Catholic position concerning its teaching -- 'Either you believe these essentials or we kick you out. Of course the content of belief and manner of dismissal is different, but the substance seems to be the same."

(1) Catholic doctrine actually makes room for a good deal of theological diversity that Pentecostals/evangelicals often don't have in their respective denominations. As far as I know, for example, Catholics can adopt just about any number of eschatological positions; none are mandated by the church. In some Pentecostal/evangelical denominations, that is not the case, however. What's my point? Let's not engage in stereotypes of Catholics in order to score points.

(2) At some point, as I wrote in an earlier response to Lane, a community of faith has to draw boundaries around itself, which let adherents and antagonists know who's in and who's out. Not only does doctrine attempt to interpret reality, not only does it function as interpretive key to Scripture (a grammar of the Divine Language, if you will), it is also serves an important sociological purpose. In light of this, there's nothing inherently wrong with an ultimatum like, "Believe this or we'll kick you out." In fact, such an ultimatum is unavoidable for communities of faith. (Didn't Paul warn the Galatians about the eternal consequences of their heresy, after all?) For me, the only question is, "How narrowly or widely do you want to draw the boundary lines?"

George

Lane Douglas said...

Italesca...

Great having an international voice on the blog!

Of the three friends I mentioned, two of them have left the ministry altogether having both experienced pretty severe mistreatment under an Apostolic style leadership model. (Hence a huge part of my passion for team-based ministry). They have sought employment in the secular world to allow themselves time to heal.

The third friend is signing on with a large, independent church in the Midwest yet taking a non-pastoral position. He and I share mutual friendships with the other two friends I mentioned above but take different stances. While I remain in the AG in hopes of influencing change... he left feeling his credentials meant he endorsed a system that hurt his friends. So his resignation of his credentials came out of what he felt was necessary loyalty to his friends.

Not sure if that helps, but it is, as Paul Harvey says... "the rest of the story."

Lane Douglas said...

Paul F...

Good post. I appreciated the philosophical take on the "believe" issue and must have said, out loud I'm sure. "If only it were so!" as I read it.

Since I begged for "real evidence" in previous comment lists, it seems this post is forcing me to bring forward more stories than theoretical thought. I just spoke of 3 friends all leaving the AG this year... and now am going to refer to a 4th who never got to enter almost 10 years ago due to a District licensing board that would totally disagree with your post.

Despite growing up AG, and faithfully working in an AG church all through seminary (the same one that jdarlack and I attended)... he was denied credentials due to saying the following at his licensing interview... "I believe in the initial evidence of tongues but feel there may be room for further development in the wording of our FT's." He moved on to get licensed with the CMA.

Later that year, at the First Annual Seminarian Conference in Springfield... myself and another seminarian pleaded his case before the GP. We were told that, though an unfortunate circumstance, Districts do maintain the right to enforce the FT's at differing levels of severity if they so choose.

So this brings me back to you, George, and sort of picks up our previous discussion...

I don't think your question is the "only" question when it comes to building a community of faith. In addition to asking "how narrowly should lines be drawn," ... there needs to be an additional question of "WHO gets to draw the lines?" as well as "HOW will said lines get enforced?"

If the lines get drawn once at the NATIONAL level, and then get re-drawn at the DISTRTICT level... and then further re-drawn at the LOCAL church level ... do we really have a community of faith? Especially when the concept of "faith" keeps getting re-interpreted by different pastors of different hermeneutical persuasions?

George P. Wood said...

Lane:

Why, oh why, do I use the word "only" when I know you'll point out something "in addition"? Dang!

You're right, of course, that the question of who draws the lines (narrowly or widely) is also important. Indeed, from a practical standpoint, it is very important. Unfortunately, variety in narrowness and wideness is an almost inevitable result of the diffusion of power in the AG. If tightened things up at the national level, we'd have more uniformity. If the national level were wide, so would the district levels. If not, then not. I doubt narrowness would go over well in large swaths of my district, but that's another matter.

It seems to me that one remedy for the problem your friend faced in his credential interview would be relational districts, which could gather around narrowness/wideness in their interpretations of faith and order. That way, a person could remain in a narrow geographical district yet affiliate with a wider relational district.

George

Italian Servant said...

Paul F.,
I worry a little about your definition of faith. I didn't find again the page, but just three days ago I read in www.infidels.org something like this to explain the absurdity of choosing the faith as a way to decide "who-is-in" and "who-is-out" the heaven.

Well, I think the Bible addresses something different from "faith in %": "So I believed, so I spoke" (2 Cor. 4.13); and also all the arguments of letter of James about a faith-that-works.

It's not a problem of "%". You can be sure at 60% or sure at 51% or sure at 99% but the most important thing is: what you'll say? what you'll do?

And so I return to my precedent comment: the problem with the "half-dissident" AoG pastors is this one: if they believe something different from the FTs, they probably will teach and they will consulee and they will work in a different way from the "standard pastors" of AoG (who believe in all the FTs).

Even my escathological thoughts will have an impact on my work in the church.

So maybe the solution is this: keep your doubt for yourself, and keep your different vision for yourself if you are ok to listen someone who defends every doctrine of the FTs and to remain quite. But if instead something inside of you rebels to some idea of the FTs (for example, if you are a strong post-tribulationist) so go away because you can't have a strong relationship with the other AoG pastors. I say a _working_ relationship.

I hope I was useful... I wrote something because I see issues and troubles with "not-black-or-white" definitions of faith.

If I'm not in the right place, and you prefer to remain in a "totally American" discussion, tell me and I'll go away... there's no problem ;-)

P.S. I'm ItalEsca (thanks for your answers Lane!), but I decided to partecipate more often in these discussions and so now I choosed a better nick: Italian Servant

Paul F. said...

George,

By no means did I intend to stereotype the Catholic church, I just thought the parallel was interesting. I actually have great respect for the Catholic church and wish that more evangelical Christians took seriously the debt we owe her. However, there are certain doctrines that, if you don't subscribe to them, you simply cannot be in the Church (or at least not in "full communion"). I'm mainly thinking of any of their doctrines declared ex cathedra. You're right that they have a lot of room for disagreement, but if you don't believe in the assumption of Mary you can't join or be in full communion with the Church.

I agree that we need to have boundaries drawn, but think they are too narrow. If doctrine are so precise on so many levels (spirit baptism, end times), then the adherents of that doctrine are forced to interpret the Bible through that doctrine. If the doctrines are inerrant then there's no problem, but I don't think anyone wants to seriously endorse the idea that the FTs are inerrant. Again, we need boundaries, but why not have them set so someone that believes in spirit baptism, that the gifts are for today, and all the other "mere Christianity" beliefs, can stay in the fellowship. It just seems odd that someone who believes everything the AG believes except that some people may not speak in tongues until they get to Heaven (I'm pretty sure we won't speak English), cannot remain in the fellowship.

I'm still trying to figure out a way to express a much broader boundary that still sets our fellowship apart from others that aren't much more than non-cessationist. How important is it to separate our views of spirit baptism from others like, say, the Foursquare church? I'm starting to think it's not that important, but would love to hear everyone else's thoughts.

Paul F. said...

Italian Servant,

I see your point, but wonder if you agree that using 'believe' as all or none when it comes to doctrine is different from how we use it everywhere else. I think if everyone was honest, they would admit that at points they have some doubt concerning the truth of the 16 Fundamentals. Cashing out 'believe' the way I did allows us to make room for people having varying levels of doubt.

Are you suggesting that 'doubt' and 'unbelief' are the same?

Italian Servant said...

Paul F.,
I start from the point that a pastor says really what he believes; that teaches wath he thinks it's true.

So when a member of the church will ask something about a doctrine, what will he answer? Can he answer with a clear proposition or he'll answer something like "I'm studying yet, I'm in doubt, etc. etc."?

I think a pastor may humbly answer, for example, "the tongues are the initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit" also if he has some doubts, only because he has a 51% faith and, above all, he trusts in the pastors of AoG and humbly says "probably they know more than me".

Sinthetically I'm saying that if there is no lie in the mouth of a pastor, the problem is not "doubt or unbelief" but only "what you say".

And I think this is the really problem also for Paul Grabill and generally every "head" of assemblies of God in the world: what are teaching the young pastors? waht do they say in the churches? and in the houses? and in the camps?

I think this is the most important problem, "the proposition problem". Now I'm thinking that there is also a "warmth problem" but it's less important and maybe I'll write something about this after, maybe I won't...

Italian Servant said...

Paul F., George,
my position I think it's clear: it's important to separate from the Foursquare church if this church _works_ differently from AoG. If the different doctrines don't create working differences, so there is no reason to keep a separation approach.

So, what's about the working model of Foursquare church?

Lane Douglas said...

LOL!!! Good to know we are on the same page humor wise, George. I often times point things out like the previous post more to inspire dialog from others than to try and debate. (Though I love the debate side as well.)

I was pretty sure you didn't think that was the ONLY question... but it was so, so easy to respond to.

Italian Servant said...

I return about the "warmth problem". Let's think that a pastor chooses a humble-wise approach and instead of saying "I'm in doubt", he says "I agree with all the 16 FTs". I'm thinking to an extreme case where a pastor believes only at 51% to all the 16 FTs. Now, what's about his preaching? there will be any strength? he's doubtful! How can he cry "hey, don't worry church, we won't cross the great tribulation" if he's not sure? he can only say it with a faint, feeble voice.

Well, I think he can be a pastor but he won't be a great pastor.

Going out from the extreme case, I think instead that he can be a great pastor if he has only some doubts about 3 FTs and chooses the "humble-wise approach" for only these items. He could be an extraordinary preacher, an extraordinary adviser
about the other items, but when I'll arrive at the 3 "doubtful" items... well, in the church there is someone else! because in this moment I'm saying in the comments of the previous post that I prefer team-working at the leadership of a church ;-)

This is my thinking about "warmth problem" that I'm sure it's in the minds of Paul Grabill and of the other "heads" of Assemblies of God ("are we growing an academic, doubtful, feeble generations of preachers?").

Nobody Special said...

I really appreciate the honesty of Paul Grabill for getting this out into the open. In response I thought I would at least state the fact that nearly all of my peers and I who are preparing for future ministry and are currently enrolled in AG institutions of higher learning, debate this issue at length often and have been for several years. Some are credentialed already. Of those credentialed, several readily admit to "closing their eyes and holding their nose" when they re-up their credentials. So Mr. Grabill has it right. There is absolutely an unfortunate integrity issue at stake in this argument. The rationale they use, which they readily admit as a rationalization, goes something like what Paul F stated with caveats: I need the AG. I don't agree with everything in the FT's but I was brought up AG, all my significant relationships and connections are within the AG, I love the AG and what it has given me as a heritage. I will hang on and wait for my opportunity to be an agent of change as in insider which affords more opportunity for renovation than any other alternative.

I guess I would characterize their position like any strong Democrat would when having to tolerate a Republican president. They remain devoted to the nation, the constitution and the freedom and liberty it provides. They defend it when attacked and work to get their candidates elected in the future all the while hoping for the country's betterment for future generations. But they do not agree with the policies of the current administration. They would not think of moving overseas. IT's their country, their land. They choose to remain, work hard, pay their taxes, wave their flags on the 4th of July with pride and wait for change. The AG however really doesn't have such a convenient position for many of those conscientious objectors with honest dissenting opinions to remain in positions of influence as ministers.

For me, since I don't have credentials nor do I have an AG legacy, I'm less bound by history and so I struggle only with whether I can swallow all the FT's as they are currently stated. I can swallow that those dealing with the issues at hand(gifts, end-times) may be true. I can even swallow that they are probably true. I respect those who believe they are true. However I can not say they are absolutely the truth and hence should be accepted as the truth for every believer. I can say they appear to have valid, scriptural support, but not beyond some degree of doubt and room for alternative, reasonable interpretations. I can not say I believe to a moral certainty that all the FT's represent God's absolute truth for all humankind. Some of them certainly represent, beyond any doubt of moral certainty, absolute universal truth. Others do not rise to that lofty standard. So I can't sign. But there is no place at this point, where I would rather serve God with my life.

But here is the question I guess my friends and I ask: Why does it matter so much? Why are the FT's elevated to the status of "deal breakers" or worse, conditions of fellowship and relationship? We could certainly have a set of FT's that designate us as biblical followers of Christ without all the details on the splintering dogmatics of our faith. Is it so important that we are designated as "Yankees" or "Mets"? Or is it enough to say we are baseball players from New York? Also remember there are other "deal breakers" too. Drinking and dancing can divide people faster than any of the FT's. Why are we making biblical non-essentials, essentials?

I mean really, I've been around more AG churches than I can count. So few of our church members and even fewer of our faithful attenders have the slightest clue about the FT's. In fact, if we are honest, you can attend a large, growing, fruitful AG church even in Springfield, Mo. for months and never know it's an AG church. It's not on the bulletin, it's not on the sign, it's never been a part of any of the small group discussions. This is not an accident.

I became a member of my local AG church not having to say I believed all the FT's to be truth. They just wanted me to understand what the AG's interpretation's were of key issues in scripture. It was a non-issue. I actually liked that about our church. (That's why I'm posting under a fake name so I don't get my pastor in trouble.)

I am not a pluralist. I believe in absolutes, absolutely. I understand that at the genesis of the AG the Holy Spirit revealed himself in a way that differentiated our movement from others and it was important to maintain that unique impartation. But now that charismatic faith and worship has become more mainstream and Pentecostalism more widely accepted, do we have to stick to such strict delineations? Why is it so important to differentiate ourselves to the degree we begin to exclude the very people who desire to support the movement with lives of service? I get that those that came before us fought hard for legitimacy and were persecuted for their courage and faith. But the toughest thing for any organization, especially the church, is to attract and retain talented people.

I interpreted the survey results not as much as a sign that the integrity of the movement is declining but that the movement should re-evaluate it's theology in light of the requirement to continually contextualize the gospel to a changing, evolving culture. It is essential to routinely determine what distinctives and trade-offs should be re-evaluated. From what I hear, Dr. Woods intends to do just that. I can't wait.

Maybe you care, maybe you don't. Maybe it matters, maybe it doesn't. But I have to say, when the Holy Spirit first drew me to my local Pentecostal church and away from a more conservative evangelical tradition, I was immediately touched by a sense of the Spirit I had never experienced or even knew possible previously. It remains one of the most significant events in my life of which I am very thankful. But because of my religious baggage, the first question I began to ask in my heart was, "Will these people continue to love me if I never meet their spiritual expectations?" Thankfully my pastor made it abundantly clear he would continue to love and accept me just the way I was whether I spoke in tongues or displayed any outward manifestations of sign gifts or not. Many months later, in the early morning quite of my devotion time, and much to my surprise, I began to pray in another tongue. Was this the first sign in my life of the indwelling of the spirit? No. Do I believe in the sign gifts? Absolutely! Was their previous fruit in my life? Yes. How can I testify to anything different? Why would I want to? Am I saying my experience trumps the FT's? No. But is what I experienced and witnessed first hand a fundamental truth for me? Yes, it has to be. To admit to anything else would be less than honest. But to have that disqualify me from serving God in this great movement is perplexing to me.

But so be it. I trust God to do abundantly more than I could ever hope or imagine in me as well as in the AG whether we work together or separately. I simply want to point out that, in my opinion, based on my experience with the future generation of leaders in training for the Kingdom of God, the AG is losing some very dedicated, talented, spirit filled ministers of the gospel because of what I see as a non-essential technicality. Others will simply wait out the hardliners and with grace and patience, like my pastor, do what Jesus would do.

I admire those with that patience and I respect the grace God has given them to wait. I understand the integrity issue. But I also liken their devotion to a military officer ordered to complete a task they know is not in their best interest nor that of the soldiers under their command. They grin and bear it as a sacrifice, holding back their own personal convictions for the betterment of the greater good. The movement is in good hands if these young, brave and patient leaders can last.

George P. Wood said...

Nobody Special raised some interesting questions in my mind about the Statement of Fundamental Truths. (1) To sign up for ministerial renewal, can you believe that the 16 FTs (especially articles 7 and 8) are valid interpretations but not necessarily the only intepretations of Scripture? (2) In light of the fact that many members of AG churches are Charismatic in theology and practice, but not classically Pentecostal, can we recognize that there are layers of importance within our 16 FTs. For example, no one could be a member at my church without believing in the Trinity, but postmillennialists are okay. (3) What do we gain by being theologically specific, and what do we lose? The narrower one's doctrinal statement, the greater the identity of the church; the looser the doctrinal statement, the more people who can in good faith sign it. I think we should recognize that there are trade-offs both ways in how narrow/wide our doctrinal statement is.

Anonymous said...

I deeply appreciate the intelligent and thoughtful remarks of "nobody special." I could hear my own words in what you said.

I am one of those who left the AG. After holding credentials with the AG for about 20 years, I decided to not renew them. My decision was more out of personal frustration with the system than anything else. The list would take too long to process here. I have sinced moved on and dealt with my own issues. I have not left my faith. God has placed us in Christian education in a non-denom school. However we are attending a non AG church. I just could not bring myself to attend any of the AG churches in town. We wanted something different.

I think I still have friends in the AG, but our lives are busy and we do not communicate. Having been raised in the AG, it still holds a special place in my heart. I am glad to see the open and frank discussion on this board. The depth of the comments and shared experiences are encouraging.

I am surpirsed that it has gone on this long. The conversations that are going on here were conversations that I would have with only a few close friends back in the day. The success of this dialog speaks to the need for it to continue.

Elton Brooke

ebagpastor said...

Wow, what a discussion. It is nice to be able to talk about this, and you are all incredible philosphers with great minds.

I must confess I am not much of a philosopher. I am an ag pastor. Have been for 16 years. I love the ag. There are a few things, mostly matters of "order" not theology, that bug me about the ag, but not that much. I figure that no matter what denomination/fellowship I might belong to, I would not agree with absolutely 100% of their beliefs or practices; but with the ag, I believe in a vast, vast majority.

When I get my annual license renewal, I happily check my theology boxes with their correct answers. What do I believe about the initial physical evidence? I'll tell you what I believe - I believe I'm not real sure about the absolute dogmaticism of tongues as initial physical evidence. It is not that I disagree with it, it is just that I am not as absolutely certain or dogmatic as my friends in Springfield are. Do I pretend to know the absolute, 100% truth regarding this matter? No. I'll add that to the dozens of other things in Scripture that I don't fully comprehend. As a Christian, and even as a Pastor, I do not feel uncomfortable with answering questions with "I don't know?" Do I feel like a liar or cheat by signing my credential form? Never. I am in this thing for a much greater cause than theological details.

I am called by God to be a Pastor. The way I see it, I am called by God to preach the Word, love people, win souls, equip believers, etc. Do I preach on the baptism in the Holy Spirit? Regularly. And I preach the traditional ag stance with tongues as evidence. (Although I don't emphasize tongues as the "main thing" of the whole experience, but just one of the wonderful byproducts of this incredible gift.) And I have seen God fulfill His promise to fill folks and to give tongues.

The thing is, and I am sure I am coming across as a real simpleton here, is that sometimes I think we are struggling to answer questions no one in the real world is asking. In my humble opinion, Jesus' main mission was to "seek and save that which is lost" and I think that should be the church's as well. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is true and real and wonderful, but even in the book of Acts it was not the apostle's main message, salvation was. When, and why, did Pentecost become our "distinctive doctrine?" And why does distinctive seem to be interpreted as "most important?"

In my pastoral experience, normal, common, run of the mill people are not wrestling with if tongues are the initial physical evidence. They are wrestling with how to find hope for their lives and marriages, how to fine purpose in their lives, deliverance from sin, and a practical down to earth way to follow the Lord each day. This does come through Jesus, and even through the power of the Holy Spirit. But do we realize, or does it matter, that we may be the only ones who are splitting these theological hairs? (Obviously a Pastor, not a theologian or philosopher here, forgive me.)

I am not criticizing this debate at all. It is a good discussion, and definitely needed. I just felt the need to give it just a little context from the local ag church on the corner.

Well, I feel better getting that off my chest. I appreciate this site, all of your great comments, the good debate, and I will keep reading, and attempting to digest.

Sorry for the length.

Lane Douglas said...

Elton...

All my other posts have a tendency to be very lengthy. This one is short. I just want to say "thanks" for posting. Your honesty and transparency have inspired me tonight.

Lane

Wonderer said...

I, too, appreciated what "nobody special" had to say.

Why is the doctrine of initial physical evidence so important as to exclude devoted followers of Christ to "official" service within the confines of AGdom who believe it is A valid interpretation (but acknowledgment is given to those interpreters outside of the convinced) of the different passages of Acts that support it?

George said:
"The narrower one's doctrinal statement, the greater the identity of the church."

I agree with this statement...but why do we need to distinguish ourselves as more unique than any other Spirit-filled believers who differ in their interpretation?

How infallible are our interpretations anyway? Should the doctrines that guide us be as specific as we have made them?

If the AG wants to make the most impact for the Kingdom of God...shouldn't we be exclusive only about the things Christ was exclusive about (ie - his identity as God)?

another opinion said...

I appreciate the perspectives of all bloggers on this issue. I have also had many discussions on these issues. I know many who admit to signing to retain their credentials even though they do not agree. I find myself in the category of one spirit filled follower of Jesus who has been called to ministry. Although God has brought me to this denomination and I would like to stay, I see the writing on the wall. I will not be able to pursue credentials here. I would not be able to sign the form with integrity.

I hope that the A/G will prayerfully consider the comments and sentiments expressed here.

George Wood's comment inspired me to join in the blog. He wrote, "The narrower one's doctrinal statement, the greater the identity of the church..." This statement warrants some thought. Should our identity rest in doctrinal statements? Is my identity in Christ or the FT's? Do we consider the "initial evidence" to be what makes us distinct as Christians or should we instead focus more on transformation into the image of Christ and the fruit of the Spirit? I think we need to reevaluate what we are fighiting for.

Nobody special said...

Elton,

I sense your wounds. I'm sorry for that. Really, I am, even though I know I can't do anything about it other than acknowledge your past pain.

Thanks for being open and honest. You certainly do have friends in the AG. I'm one. I know that's not much consolation but I hope you sense God moving in the AG to change some of what you were concerned about all along. I think that could provide you at least dome degree of validation.(not that you are looking for it.)

Elton's situation makes me wonder about a possible silver lining around this cloud. One that I, Elton, "another opinion" and others might just find consolation in. Perhaps God desires us to take our "not quite up to par" pentecostal beliefs as seed to another not so pentecostal denomination or movement. Perhaps, like Elton, we will always have a dear place in our hearts for what God gave us in the AG, but our task will be to take that depth of experience to a drier place that has not yet experienced the river of his grace, provision and love. That would be OK with me.

I guess, in the meantime, I just have to get over the human emotions of being politely ostracized. It is painfully ironic to realize that the AG has deemed me somehow unworthy or unfit to be a minister as a direct result of my experience with the gifts these same people helped me to discover. I feel like I am being rejected on the very same issue that originally drew me to them. The blessing seems to have come with a minor curse. That is hard for me to reconcile emotionally and relationally. But I will and I can because I don't have much choice and God is good.

Marvin J. Miller said...

It's been a while, since I posted, but this has been a good discussion. I have been in the AG since age 9 and have a complete buy in to everything -- RR, JBQ, Missions, etc. But my early years were steeped in Lutheran & Reformed tradition during the charismatica renewals of the 1970's which heavily influences my perspectives on the FT's (particularly eschatology & pneumatology). I consider them home, a base to start from in intellectual questioning. But my other backgrounds offer a different lens which influences how I do ministry within the context of the AG church I am part of. I choose to stay part of the AG because my "church cultural" identity lies there -- I would be lost anywhere else. Perhaps I didn't pay too much attention in my polity class, but I understood back then that there was a lot more lee way present 15 years ago - at least in SoCal. I remember when another Pentecostal denomination in the early 1990's severely cracked down on their distinctives, causing many to leave.

We are at a identity crossroads. I noticed Dr. Wood's comments in the TPE today about our 94 year old denomination. I think we on this blog clearly see it. In my travels, I've been in many different AG churches around the country and this would be a very new concept for them. Many in the laity think that their local AG church is the norm, not realizing the vast differences scatter throughout the country. Many probably couldn't even tell you the 16 FT's.
If we argue that the FT's are essential to us as a fellowship, but 99% of our congregations don't know what they are, what is their purpose? Most of those FT's were done in specific response to particular controversial practices in the early days and are culturally irrelevant today.

I would agree its time to re-examine the 16 and come up with less that still maintain the core of our identity and our pentecostal mission, yet encourage the next generation in creative practices.

Until then, I consider the 16 FT's like the Pirate code of Morgan & Bartholomew -- more as guidelines.. Savvy?

George P. Wood said...

The 16 Fundamental Truths as a "pirate code"? Shiver me timbers!

Italian Servant said...

George,
(1) YES, to sign up for ministerial renewal, we can believe that the 16 FTs are valid interpretations but not necessarily the true intepretations of Scripture. It's a "now I don't know" philosophy, but I'll continue to seek for the Truth, and I'll find it.(2) YES, we can recognize that there are layers of importance within our 16 FTs and this is useful because not all the biblical truths have the same impact in my life (3) If our doctrines are true, we gain a lot of things by being theologically specific, not only the identity of the church ("the truth makes you free"); I think we need "theologically specific" ministers and instead we can be wider and tolerate the members of the church and so have more people in good faith that sign it (I'm saying, NOT the pastors).

There are no examples in the bible of someone who can say "I'm baptized in the Holy Spirit" without speaking in other tongues. Charismatic thinking opens to a subjective-relativistic spirituality. Maybe I'm wrong but we need to trust that we can achieve the Truth speaking together, praying the Holy Spirit and reading the Bible. Maybe someone in this blog can convince me that my interpretation is not so sure, but if we don't have faith not only in the absolute but also that WE CAN ACHIEVE THE ABSOLUTES ("He will guide you in all the truth") we are in a dangerous position that opens to a lot of other problems.

When we read "He will guide you in all the truth" are we believing and trusting it? and are we believing in a propositional truth or in a new-age/ mystic/ liberal truth? Body of Christ, don't joke with these things...

Italian Servant

P.S. If I seem a little strange with some phrases, it's probably because my english is not so good to clearly define the tones of my comment

Italian Servant said...

MMM... I need to add an item. In Italy we don't have Vineyard churches and charismatic trends didn't touch our churches. We still have (until today) a strong absolute classical pentecostal approach. So I need to ask for some evidences. Do you know someone who absolutly doesn't speak other tongues but it's exactly the sterotypical pentecostal man of God? a miracle-maker, anointed preacher, optimus evangelist? If you know him, I need to learn something more about this issue... tell me!

Italian Servant

Italian Servant said...

ebagpastor,
probably someone is laughing because this is my third consecutive post, but I have an analitical mind (I've a Physics degree) so I write with just one or two ideas, then I think to the context again and I find other reasons to write.

I hope that my way of dibating and discussing is not boring but useful andeasy to understand. If that's not right, please tell me.

I'm sure that the members of your church are wrestling with other everyday issues but if we want to continue the discipling mission that God gave to us and make that "all people are perfect beside God" (Colossesi 1.28) we _must_ give to the members of the church the elements to undestand what it means to be "witnesses" of Christ. Having good spiritual health, having clearness in my mind and also in my heart means that I know if I need something else after my new birth or not at all and I need to know which is the way to receive it and also which is the way to be sure I got it.

Probably I'm not able to fully understand the pains of a lot of members of the church, but too many believers are too busy with their problems and their personal struggles and they forget the call of the mission, that crosses the baptism in the Holy Spirit with initial tongues.

Pratically, I'm saying that we _need_ surely a clear, strong theology of the baptism in the Holy Spirit, stronger than what I saw until today in our Assemblies of God (Italian, American, French... etc.).

Italian Servant

Lane Douglas said...

As I've been reading through the list, it seems that we are possibly missing the "core" of something in our discussion. When George stated that the more narrow the doctrinal lines, the more distinctive the identity, he was 100% correct. Whether you agree with how narrowly WE draw the lines, the precept is still correct.

What we are missing is this... our distinctiveness is NOT that we believe in tongues as the initial evidence, although many, many pastors have so overbearingly preached on it that it certainly seems like it is. Our distinctiveness as a movement is that we believe Christianity has to be lived out in the empowerment of the Spirit as opposed to simply the reception of the Spirit at the moment of justification. This is our distinctiveness.

As such, we believe that our people HAVE to be people living in the empowerment of the Spirit. That begs the obvious question... how do you know if they are or not? Actually... it begs an even more important question which is "How do THE PEOPLE know when they have received Spirit-empowerment?"

Our answer, as a movement, is that the possession and practice of a prayer language is the identifying mark. In other words, our distinctiveness is found in FT #7 of which FT #8 is the identifying evidence.

Now, you may completely disagree with the "initial evidence" doctrine, but two sets of questions emerge that you have to then answer:

SET #1 - RE: TONGUES
====================


1. If you disagree with the initial evidence doctrine, do you disagree that it is the initial evidence in the sense that there are OTHER initial evidences? (This is where I said I was still researching and possibly different from others.)

2. Or do you disagree that tongues signifies anything at all?


SET #2 - RE: SPIRIT EMPOWERMENT
============================


1. Despite your view on the initial evidence, do you still agree that Christianity has to be lived out through a life of empowerment of (as opposed to the reception of ) the Spirit?

2. If you answered "yes" to #1, then what solution do you give as a means of identifying potential leaders and helping followers seek it other than tongues?

3. IF... IF... you answered "no" to #1, then you definitely are at odds with the very foundational and distinctive belief of our movement.

All that being said, I want to make sure that we are on the same page. Spirit-empowerment subsequent to Spirit-reception as the means to successful Christian living is our distinctive... not "tongues as the initial evidence."

My personal opinion is that we should draw the line around FT #7 and leave FT #8 open for a divergence of opinion and discussion. What do you think?

Italian Servant said...

I agree with the fact that FT #7 is more important than FT #8, because FT #8 has no meaning without FT #7, but I think there is no space in the Bible reading to have any position different from tongues-as-inital-evidence.

Spirit-empowerment subsequent to Spirit-reception as the means to successful Christian living is _NOT_ our distinctive... because you can find this view also in a lot of charismatic areas that are different from AoG.

And there's also the problem that theologian like Gordon Fee (AoG) sees baptism in the Holy Spirit as Spirit-reception (at the best of my knowledge).

Humbly,
Italian Servant

Paul F. said...

Lane, Great post! I couldn't agree more with your assessment that the AG distinctive has been (and should be) FT 7. That's the message we need to "get out" to other people.

In response to your second set of questions (I'm still unsure about the first set), I'm very confident that the answer to #1 is yes. Regarding #2, I think leaders should look to rely on those that exhibit the fruits of the spirit.

If a person exhibits qualities of a mature Christian, then leaders should feel comfortable relying on that person as they see fit. We know that using speaking in tongues as a test produces a lot of false positives already (many immature Christians speak in tongues a lot), so why not eliminate that test to begin with and rely on other more sound tests (exhibiting fruits of the spirit)?

Again, great post.

Italian Servant said...

Well, I want really to understand the nature of the issue: WHY WE HAVE MANY PROBLEMS TODAY with the classical doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

I can think to four reasons:

1) Biblical problems: that's ok, but I want to hear them;
2) Experience problems: I can understand them, but I can't agree: if you have some super-evangelical friend, surely I understand you have doubts about the baptism in the Holy Spirit with tongues, but you must however try to understand everything better with the Bible;
3)Relational problems: interdenominationality is surely a struggle for pentecostals, maybe everything can be easier without our FT #8; but I totally disagree about this one as a good reason for a weaker FT #8;
4)Result problems: I fear this one could be the real reason, when I saw that 70% of the AoG members don't speak in other tongues. It's everything easier if we don't have this problem of tongues... isn't it? Is the Word Standard too high for us and so we are trying to do it "soft"?

These are my _questions_,NOT my _answers_ but I really would like to understand the issue, because I'm young and we know in Italy that when a trend is in AoG of America, then it will arrive to us after 10-20 years.

Curiously,
Italian Servant

Italian Servant said...

Paul F.,
maybe it seems so but I'm not trying to obtain a "shut up" answer :-D! I need again to express my disagreement.

Which is the biblical relationship between mature Christians and baptism in the Holy Spirit? and what about baptism in the Holy Spirit and fruit of the Holy Spirit?

I'm sure that every Christian can be a good man, full of fruits, a "mature" christian _without_ baptism in the Holy Spirit (I think to Billy Graham or Spurgeon).

I don't see that Paul says in Galathians "if you want fruit of the Spirit, let's wait for the baptism".

But the baptism in the Holy Spirit means _potentially_ power in evangelism and signs and wonders. Means special anoyinting to be useful for others. This is why Jesus said "wait for the baptism" in Acts 1. And in which way it arrived? with tongues.

I don't want for the future assemblies of God full only of mature christians (I can go into a lot of other denominations); I don't want assemblies of God full of christians that SAY they were spiritually empowered but it's only a joke (I can go in Charismatic churches of various kind). I want (and I hope that WE want) assemblies of God full of Christians that are REALLY empowered. So we need tongue as clear evidence. Without any doubt.

Stubborn,
Italian Servant

Shibboleth said...

What classical Pentecostals believe today about speaking in tongues is not what they believed at the beginning of the movement. They believed that speaking in tongues would allow them to take the gospel to foreign cultures without learning the languages. Some would argue that the Acts record was written for third-generation Christians who needed to be reminded about the Spirit-empowered beginnings of Christianity. None of us currently believe that we will be granted spiritual abilities to speak other languages without going through language schools today. It's as one author suggests, the "last word" or the "lost word" that we hang our denominational identity on. I wish Pastor Grabill would be more concerned with issues of integrity like pride, arrogance, and self-importance that often characterize our leadership. Ask one doctrinal question on the annual form: "Do you believe in the full empowerment of God's Spirit as recorded in the book of Acts?" Stop the 'Shibboleth' vs. 'Sibboleth'parsing that demonstrates a lack of integrity and charity in our ranks.

George P. Wood said...

Shibboleth:

It is misleading to write, as you did, that early Pentecostals "believed that speaking in tongues would allow them to take the gospel to foreign cultures without learning the languages." Some early Pentecostals did in the earliest years of the movement, but that belief in missionary xenolalia was quickly laid to rest by practical experience. Consequently, the rest of your argument ("None of us believe...") is effectively a straw man argument. Finally, you seem to insinuate in your final sentences that Paul Grabill is more concerned with the integrity of people signing credential renewals than with the integrity issues facing our leaders. (a) How do you know that? (b) Grabill was simply writing a post about something on his heart. The fact that he didn't address the other issues simply means that it wasn't within the scope of his post. No more, no less.

Critiques of AG leadership have gotten plenty of press on this blog. Given the amount of criticism directed at our doctrinal statement, Grabill simply thought it important to raise the question of the ethics of people who sign the statement. If we're going to constructively critique our leaders, we ought to be prepared for a little pushback, don't you think. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

George

David Letterman said...

Top Ten Reasons To Sign My Credential Renewal Form

1. I get that good looking card with the 1-800 number on it for quality counseling when I am in trouble
2. It allows me membership to an organization with the average age of Moses
3. Discounts at Radiant Bookstore!!
4. Sectional events............they change my life and ministry
5. Voting rights to change the term from "and" to "or" in the District Bylaws
6. Tuition discounts for my kids at an A/G college.........oh wait we don't get that
7. The right to complain constructively about my concerns to my District Superintendent without reprisal....oh wait, we don't get that either.
8. Discounts at GPH!
9. Tax deductions for paying my dues like a good little soldier
10. A national health plan.........dang, we don't get that one either!!

pastor darrell said...

Bro. Grabil’s seems to be challenging us to decide whether people who are holding credentials with the A/G but do not espouse # 7 and # 8 of the FT are being disingenuous, and if so, why are they doing so. I believe that the question is valid, but I also feel that there is a component being missed in the answers. We are not going to helpfully address this issue if we force ourselves between option 1. “These guys have a moral problem,” or 2. “The A/G bullies people into submission.” It seems to me that part of the problem lies in how more traditional ministers are approach the FT and how younger guys are using it.

I hold to the classic A/G position on initial evidence, comfortably and strenuously. But I find that a core problem for me is in how we are to relate to the 16 FT. We have a document called fundamental truths that really is a mixture of fundamental truths in some cases and emphases in others. Some of the FT are merely restating orthodox Nicene creedal forms. All good; all fundamental. Other parts are focused upon things that the early A/G ministers wanted to focus upon as a movement. In my view - all good; hard to consider fundamental. Notice, for example, that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is more clearly spelled out in the FT than is the personhood of the Holy Spirit, a doctrine of sanctification, gifts, regeneration, sealing, etc.

If a pastor were to simply teach through the FT, his congregation would not be well grounded unless he added much exposition. So, whether we like it or not, we do not use the FT as a statement of foundational truth and fundamental doctrine in daily the life of the church. Instead, we use it as something that sometimes deals with fundamentals and sometimes deals with emphases and interpretation. Pastors push the fundamentals but do not focus as much attention on the parts that they see as merely being early A/G emphases.

So a pastor who doesn’t see #7 or # 8 as fundamental will relate to it as having little more influence than an A/G position paper which he knows has little binding influence in most A/G churches. In one way, this situation is like my marriage. It is fundamental to my wife and me that we not have other lovers. We agree we both have signed on the dotted line. However, try as she might, she can’t get me to see some of her big complaints as fundamental. That whole picking up the socks things is an emphasis, not a fundamental. I don’t feel I am being somehow dishonest to say to her “I love, Babe.” Even when I know that I did left my socks in front of the hamper again.

This is entenable in the longterm.

George P. Wood said...

Good analysis, Pastor Darrell!

Anonymous said...

I am in full agreement that integrity is an issue and people should be more thoughtful in signing the papers if there disagreement with the so-called cardinal doctrines (#8 in this case).

Certainly there are some who are "born and reared" AG folk who have the culture in their blood and would be lost anywhere else yet have issues with any of the four cardinal truths (#8 in this case) but feel called to minister but can't and don't know where else to go.

I agree too that the women in ministry issue and the issue of eschatology keep (not a few) people from signing the papers than the issue of tongues per se though that is an issue too.

A pastor in the SGF area on the one hand insists no one can receive the Holy Spirit and not speak in tongues and yet on the other hand draws the line as women as senior pastors and does not think it is biblical. The man should be the sole visionary and leader of the church. If this is the case why is he in the AG when the AG fully supports women as senior pastors. (he is not alone on this issue - I knew students at the AG Seminary who were the same way) (wasn't there a man who "went to the mic" at GC and tried to say the church is dying because we have women ministers?).

In regards to eschatology I personally see very little support for the dispensensational pre-trib view of end-times in the Bible.

If only folks would realize the Apocalypse is not a "road map" to end times. Apocalyptic literature is just not like that at all. I am in agreement with a professor at the seminary in leaning more towards being historic pre-mil (but myself teetering on the edge of amil).

but I digress...

Anonymous said...

Great discussion. My comment has to do with the amount of "slang" I read in these blogs. I am a layperson just wondering if this is acceptable vocabulary for AG ministers now.

99% agree said...

Pastor Gabrill, thank you for you sincere post. I have a great deal of respect for you and all that God is doing through your ministry.

I want to first state that I love being a part of the cooperative fellowship of the Assemblies of God. I respect and honor those that God has placed in leadership on both the district level and General Council level. However, I like many of the people who sign their papers each year doesn't agree with 100% of the 16 FT. The one I wrestle with is of course speaking in tongues is the initial physical evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I do believe however, it is an initial physical evidence of the Baptism of Holy Spirit. Now with that being really my only dividing point with the 16 FT, should I surrender my credentials? I hope not. Does this say I have no integrity? If you say yes to either of these, this is where I feel where the collapse of the AG will begin, because you will be alienating a lot of capable men and women from ministry just because they don't adhere to 16 FT.

I make no apologies if I don't hold on to the 16 FT as high as God's Word, God's Word is my ultimate authority and not 16 FT. I believe everyone of us agrees with that.

I feel I am called by God into ministry, I also feel that I have been confirmed by man for this great calling.

I totally agree with Pastor Darrell's observation.

Just my thoughts on this post. Thank you for allowing us to share. I appreciate the ability to be able to use a nickname for fear of having my credentials stripped from me for not agreeing 100% with the 16 FT.

Anonymous said...

Lane, January 14, 2008 6:12 AM,

I agree tongues is the initial physical evidence but am probably with Flowers in that it is the "primary" physical evidence but not necessarily the "immediate" evidence. But if I understand things, this is at variance with cardinal doctrine #8), or no?

I personally think more people experience it as a delayed experience than those who experience it as an immediate experience. But that is my opinion.

Italian servant (January 14, 2008 7:13 AM) wants to know why there is so much debate over tongues? I personally believe it is because of the influence of Evangelicalism, which often (more or less) downplays the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer (and downplays the role of miraculous spiritual gifts). The students at the AG seminary read few if any Pentecostal books - most are books and articles of evangelical flavor - so while it is a pentecostal seminary - the training is more or less evangelical.

Also, there is the influence of getting an eddymacation, the more edjmacated one is, the more open one tends to be of other viewpoints and there is less tendency toward doctrinal dogmatism.

One other thing, more and more folks are coming to and joining AG churches that are more nondenominational in feel (ie: JRA) and few if any attend for years and hardly know what the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is since it is rarely preached. Though there is a spectrum where some over preach it and others hardly preach it at all.

That is my opinion.

Italian Servant said...

Anonymous (the last one),
just few moments before I read your post, I was saying with the comments on the post about church-leadership that our problem is educational. You confirm me.

But, that's fun, I'd understand these problems in Italy because we don't have Ev-freers or Vineyard churches, and so an anti-cessationist not-pentecostal evangelical believer has no-good-denomination here, but I totally agree on theological reasons with Brother Grabill that if an American believer (pastor or not) prefers Lane's distinctive ("Spirit-empowerment subsequent to Spirit-reception as the means to successful Christian"), he is a Vineyardite, not a Pentecostal!

In fact I thought that the three friends of Lane had became Vineyardites... this is why I asked.

It's fun because we don't have these problems in Italy because we have a very easy, almost literalistic hermeneutics and so it's not common that someone attacks tongues. YOU have, but why?
There is another denomination that already has these simply theological lines: that's all for you. Let Assemblies of God for the narrow, strict (but I say stronger) minds...

(I'm joking, I don't want to really hurt anybody)...

Italian Servant

Casey Stafford said...

I really love this sort of thing. I love the forum, the open discussion, the back and forth, the tete-a-tete. I used to participate in the Chi Alpha Idea Exchange until I single-handedly shut it down with my clever reparte (actually, I don't know why they shut it down, but it could have been partially my fault). Like I said, I really hate this sort of thing. So I just want to ask some questions.

If tongues is not the initial physical evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, then why was it the only manifestation consistently reported in the Acts?

If tongues is not the IPE of the BHS, then why did the Jews say of the Romans, "they received just like we did," when they heard them speaking in tongues?

If tongues is not the IPE, then what other measure should be used to determine whether or not someone has the BHS?

Is it even important to determine that someone has the BHS? For that matter, is it even important to determine that someone is saved, and what measure do we use for that, and where did that measure come from?

It has long been my observation that those within the AG who argue against the IPE are people who have actually experienced it for themselves, which in my mind creates an even greater division within our ranks when we start telling people, "OK, I speak in tongues, and I have spoken in tongues ever since I got the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, but it may not be for you."

Italian Servant said...

mmm,
just another thing: it's clear from the last comments that with my four-options comment about "why someone dislikes tongues" I didn't think to a problem of "friendship". It seems to me that Paul and Lane simply want more believers inside of AoG. Probably they have a lot of charismatic friends and they say "why can't we work together? only for a stupid, little statement number 8? We could have bigger Aog Fellowship without this shibbolet". But so why don't forget also the empowerment issue and create a bigger Christian-at-all-denomination? I think that the real solution for the need of love and friendship and useful relationship is in a good interdenominationality (this could be another good argument for a post, take this note please George ;-)). We can work together in a lot of areas with every kind of Christian Believer. We don't need a common denomination. In other words,there is another community of faith that is surely bigger than AoG or other denominations.

On the other hand it seems to me (about JRA) that statistically pentecostal churches grow faster than charismatic ones (and I think because WE are really empowered... yes, I look like an arrugant believer but also if I study a lot of the other trends, I have the illness of "doctrinal dogmatism" :-)).

I think I said really all I wanted to say this time, that's all,
Italian Servant

Italian Servant said...

Oh Casey Stafford,
you are so strict and close-minded: read this: http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/200501/200501_heritage_pt1.cfm

(I'm joking, I agree with you...;-))

George P. Wood said...

Casey:

For me, the problem is an overemphasis on the initial evidence to the detriment of what my dad calls the substantial evidence. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is about much more than speaking in tongues, as Article 7 of the Fundamental Truths makes clear. But the AG distinctive is initial evidence. Why shouldn't our distinctive rather be the broader evidence of a Spirit-filled life? For me, in summary, the issue is not the truth of Article 8 but the weight our doctrinal statement gives it.

George

Geoff said...

This is an interesting conversation for myself, because I today acquired the application for being licensed in the Assenblies of God Southern Missouri District. Yes, I am here close to the "Blue Mecca" (for those of you who have gone to school here in Springfield. I am student at Evangel and we have discussed these very topics in our classes.

I have a conflict when trying to decide whether I believe Pre-trib eschatology. I guess all I can say is that I don't think the answer is very clear in scripture. Also, I don't feel it is over as great an importance as we have made it. I know that my soul has been redeemed by Christ and that I will one day be with my Maker. Whether, I am to be taken away before (pardon the expression) all hell LITERALLY breaks loose on earth, or whether I have to endure the whole thing is of little consequence because I know my stance and my firm and utter devotion to the One I love. Why does this have to be something that I must subscribe to so that I may hold credentials? If it is so unclear in scripture, why must we try and make this a cut and dry case? Especially if it is of little consequence to salvation?

Like I said, I am a student looking for credentials and I know I will be asked questions regarding this and it makes me uneasy.... to say the least

Danny "dj" Morales said...

In the spirit of David Letterman (I winced but laughed) and in hopefully another Spirit here are my top 7:

7. The Resurrection of Jesus (without this our faith is meaningless)

6. The Trinity (I think it important to acknowledge who God is both for the sake of truth and for fellowship)

5. The Rapture (Jesus promised to prepare a place for us and I think a cataclysmic world event like this deserves top priority)

4. The Fruit and Gifts of the Holy Spirit (wouldn't it be nice to be known for a balanced diet of fruit and power?)

3. Love for God and People (the summary of all the law per Jesus - oh and wouldn't it be nice to be defined by our love?)

2. The Great Commission (our job description as believers)

and not that it is numero uno in priority, but for the sake of continued discussion...

1. The three new covenant acts that cover us and their covenantal signs we are to experience: Salvation - the Blood of Jesus, Baptism in Water - immersion in water, and the Lord's Baptism in the Holy Spirit - the unknown tongue.

I know this last one is the bone of contention. So...

As far as the Lord's Baptism is concerned, I for one think that because it is the Promise of the Father (singular), marks the birth of the Church (singular event), and is Jesus' baptism (a baptism by definition is a singular event, fillings are multiple events), it should be a doctrinal priority. The unknown tongue (singular as opposed to gifts of different kinds of tongues) as a covenantal sign is worthy of much more discussion and I am not afraid to see it continue.

BTW, I use the term "cover" for a reason, because I believe the Atonement is the central redemptive act that comprises Salvation, Baptism in Water, and the Lord's Baptism. I know there is a lot of different theories out there about it, but for it to be the highest holy day in God's calendar and set apart from Passover there has to be more to it than we give credit. I hope and pray we can discover and develop ways to understand the Atonement in more of its fullest.

I embrace the idea of re-visiting and re-communicating doctrinal truths. I find the idea exciting and frought with adventure (I know there's danger too). Given all the discussion, it will be wise to separate the fundamentals and the distinctives in whatever form our doctrinal truths take. I also think it wise to provide a little wiggle room for our eschatology (thus I didn't put pre-trib, the millennium, and New Heaven etc.).

Blessings all!

Lane Douglas said...

Anonymous (1.14.08 2:00 PM)

Your position that tongues can be a delayed evidence (per Flowers) is at variance with the spirit of FT #8. As I said earlier, the most basic interpretation of FT8 holds that, by "initial," we really mean "immediate."

My point earlier up is that many of our FT's allow for variances in interpretation. Since we add the word "physical" to our statement, it means that we are making a distinction between physical and metaphysical evidences. As such... our belief holds that tongues is the initial PHYSICAL evidence but says nothing of what might precede it as a non-tangible.

All that being said, my point is that in order for a "delayed evidence" viewpoint to be at variance with the letter of the doctrine, one of two things have to happen:

1. A comma needs to be placed between the words "initial" and "physical." (Hence, tongues becomes the "initial AND physical" evidence)

2. Change the word "initial" to "immediate."

For what it is worth, I am not in favor of either of these. Just trying to point out the room for personal interpretation.

Revmla said...

David Letterman said it all.

Anonymous said...

George said,
"For me, the problem is an overemphasis on the initial evidence to the detriment of what my dad calls the substantial evidence."

Absolutely! George, your father made a great observation. The overemphasis on the initial physical evidence has overshadowed the more substantive internal evidence of spiritual depth.

As the initial evidence, tongues are merely the beginning of what it means to be baptized (immersed) in the Spirit. The Spirit-filled believer should exemplify not only the gifts of the Spirit, but the fruit of the Spirit.

I do not have a problem with the initial evidence, just the overemphasis and obsession with a mere physical manifestation of an experience that is substantialy deeper and truly profound.

That's my .02 worth,
Elton

Anonymous said...

In our church we teach that tongues is the initial physical evidence - but not the BEST evidence.

pastor darrell said...

I have been reading the Future AG for a while and only recently wrote a couple of comments. Someone said they agreed with me on one of the comments and I was instantly frightened, because I know how little I understand these things. But I wanted to say something - a kind of for the record comment. I believe that working for a Spirit-filled, biblical, loving, and honest Assemblies of God USA is one of the most important things that can be done for the advance of the gospel of Jesus today. I spent 16 years as a missionary and I loved my ministry at AGWM, but felt God calling me back to the USA. Please recognize that as we discuss faults, foibles, failures in our fellowship, we can rightfully do so with broken hearts of prayer as well as open minds. If we can only have one or the other, let it be the former.

Corinthian said...

Please remember:

Tongues in no way indicates the level of spiritual maturity of a believer. A baptized believer may be very spiritually IMMATURE.

My church is a great example. In fact, if my church wasn't so messed up...we would have never received so much correction for sexual sin, etc.

Yet...we were charismatic!!!

Italian Servant said...

Geoff,
I don't believe in pre-tribulationism. So I understand you. If I were you, I'd try to speak with your senior pastor. I can't think that all AoG are so strong about a position that has so many biblical difficulties, even at Springfield high-quarter.

Ah, in Italian AoG Fts, we don't have any clear formulation about escatology in our FTs. Maybe you can come in Italy in mission! :-)

The more I study American AoG, the more I like Italian ones (but you can't think what kind of problems we have that you don't have...)

Marvin J. Miller said...

Help me out here. I've noticed other comments on women & eschatology. I just re-read the 16 FT's and I don't see anything about a requirement to be pre-trib #13 (pre-millenial #14, yes) or a requirement to be male #11. To what degree do I hold the different position papers as binding my particular pentecostal identity, or as guidance for a particular time or community. Stanley Horton's comentaries over the years are great, but not what I would consider binding or absolute. (By the way, he was the cutting edge of his day) I find comfort in them, but do I need to force that on my younger pastor friends as they do creative ministry in a post-christian culture? Just because I prefer a particular resolution result over another, do I make that the reason I leave the community I identity the greatest with?
-Marvin

Casey Stafford said...

Listen, I'll try not to be too dogged on this forum, but this is a discussion of great interest and great concern to me. I have been accused of being a progressive (from time to time), suspected of being a traditionalist (alot of the time), and scorned for having my mind made up (though not here yet). I am thoroughly Pentecostal in belief, in practice, in heritage, and in experience. And this kind of discussion puzzles me. So let me make a few observations...

It's been my experience over several years of having these discussions that most of the people asking the questions aren't really looking for answers; they simply want to impose their own standard in the stead of the ones we already have that they don't agree with.

A hundred years ago, there were sincere people seeking the fullness of everything the Lord had to give them, and two of the biggest proponents had not experienced what they themselves were preaching (Parham & Seymour). But when those hungry people began to get filled with the Spirit and began to speak in tongues, they were rejected and expelled from mainline denominations and were forced to form their own organizations (thus we have the AG, etc). And they weren't rejected for wanting the fullness of God, they were rejected because they spoke in tongues. Might it be that all this hubbub is over us wanting to be a little more acceptable now that we've come out of the brush arbor into the air-conditioning?

I've been in Pentecost all my life, and I have never heard anyone "over-emphasize" tongues. I've always heard a balance preached between gifts and fruit, between power and character. I have always preached a balance between gifts and fruit. And for the most part I have witnessed a balance. That's not to say there aren't some who swing the pendulum too far one way, but the real problem we are facing today is the "de-emphasis" of power and gifts in favor of humanistic methods that seem to be successful but are not what God intended.

Is it really over-emphasis to point out the Biblical standard that is clear in Scripture--that those who experienced the Baptism in the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues as a result, and we should follow their pattern and example? After all, if it was good for Paul and Silas...

A final question: Why do those who are intolerant of solid doctrinal stances insist that we tolerate Imnotsureism?

Lane Douglas said...

Casey...

There were several points I wanted to respond to in your post, but chose to limit it to one I feel most strongly about within our movement.

You stated:

Might it be that all this hubbub is over us wanting to be a little more acceptable now that we've come out of the brush arbor into the air-conditioning?

I want to caution you on perpetuating this point too strongly. There is a flip-side (almost dark side) to this statement that we, as Pentecostals, are often blind to.

What I have learned over the years is that there is a pride among Pentecostals over our being "different." In other words... this argument carries with it an intonation that we should almost desire NOT TO BE ACCEPTED by the mainline. The result is that we have become, over the years, elitist and arrogant.

One of the things we so often forget is that Acts records pretty clearly for us that, before anything else, tongues was simply the sign for the Apostles to see that the Gentiles were to be included now in with the Jews. (Acts 11:17-18) Glosso/Xeno-lalia served as the proof that Christ had come to "make the two one."

The danger for us, as Pentecostals, is to absolutely destroy this by wanting to maintain a separateness from the rest of the family of God. If we are not actively seeking ways to make the doctrine more understandable to our brothers and sisters in Christ ignorant of its truth, shame on us. And if we are not looking for inroads to be more embraced, and to embrace the larger family, again... shame on us.

I appreciate all that our founding fathers (and mothers) did for us in formulating the doctrines as best as they could understand it. But I see our role now as one of taking it to the next step and finding ways of carrying the reality of Spirit-empowerment to those who do not yet understand it. I have absolutely no desire in spending my days simply trying to preserve tradition and maintaining a division between myself and non-Charismatics.

it is not my air-conditioning that makes me want to be accepted by others, it is my desire to see the promise of Christ fulfilled that there be "one out of the two."

Italian Servant said...

Lane,
I agree with you about almost everything, specially about this issue: "I have absolutely no desire in spending my days simply trying to preserve tradition and maintaining a division between myself and non-Charismatics."

About this item I repeat that my answer is strong interdenominationality.

"But I see our role now as one of taking it to the next step and finding ways of carrying the reality of Spirit-empowerment to those who do not yet understand it.".

My approach about this issue is maybe nearer than expected to yours.

I speak only of Spirit-empowerment with an evangelical friend. I advice to seek for it and if there are other pentecostals that have some doubts about my approach, I say to them that if he has a true desire, surely he'll speak in other tongues (I _believe_ in FT 8, for me it's NOT tradition).

But what I can't say without I say a lie (and I hope nobody here says something like this) is: "oh oh, what a beautiful experience are you telling to me, dear evangelical friend... surely you're baptized, also if you didn't speak in other tongues." These ones are evangelical-charismatic myths.

Geoff said...

Casey:

I find it hard to believe that you have never heard the over emphasis of tongues! I'm not saying it's impossible, just highly improbable! I've only been around 23 years and i've herad it several times. Now I agree that tongues is the initial emphasis physical evidence. It is the only instance that we see in scripture. Does that mean that the Spirit cannot manifest itself ina different manner? I firmly say no! But back to the point. Over emphasis is so common. We emphasize initial physical evidence without the emphasis of the subsequent gifts. The AG fundametal truth's of baptism in the Holy Spirit are quite vague in this area. Why not specifically list the gifts of the Spirit? I go to an AG school and we rarely discuss the gifts. We are so stuck on initial physical evidence. I find some of rhetoric and discussion almost arrogant sometimes. Im not saying everyone is, it's just an observation.

I think we must understand the purpose of baptism in the Spirit is to empower the believer and to be a witness to believers and nonbelievers of what God has and is doing in your life. If it does not draw others to a better understanding of who God is... then it is not fulfilling its specified purpose. We are ALL believers, whether we are Catholic, AG, Baptist and so on. We need to join together and work as a body. Is this possible? I think that's up to us.

Here's a question that I'd like to see a blog on. Should we encourage inter-denominational conversation about doctrine? Should we as a denomination talk to other denominations to try and unite the kingdom of God?

Italian Servant said...

geoff,
I totally agree with you.

I'm writing because I need some doctrinal help about the issue of spiritual gifts. Even the Meinzes (father and son) that are, I suppose, the best and the best rapresentative classical pentecostal theologians of AoG, recently have some doubts about BHS as gateway to spiritual gifts. They explicity refer also to Vineyardite experiences as reasons of these doubts.

So I need some help:

1) Can someone address to me a good page or a good book that >>>with a high hermeneutical standard<<< explaines the doctrine of BHS as a gateway to spiritual gifts?

2) Can someone tell me where I can find some examples of Vineyard-spiritual-gifts that create confusion among Pentecostal Classical believers about the issue of BHS as a gateway for spiritual gifts?

I'd really need of these answers.

pastor darrell said...

Bro. Letterman

You write well - engagingly and amusingly. I agree with much that you have said and think that the format was clever.

Now, I don’t want to sound like a snarky schoolmarm, but I am perplexed so I’m going to ask you to clarify. In your Top Ten list, your complaints were that there were inadequate “perks” attached to being part of the A/G fellowship. Please tell me, are those your real, honest, bother-you-through the night concerns about where we are as a movement?

If they are then I say, Hallelujah! If most agree with you, then we are not facing real challenges in our movement at all. We just need to adjust how we approach perks.

For me, I have other concerns. One is that we seem to be failing in huge measure to inspire our churches to work hand-in-hand in real cooperation (remember the Decade of harvest splash and burn?) Another is we are failing to help churches in times of trouble and transition and we are losing and closing too many of them. Another is there is a growing irkedness in the tone of complaint between younger ministers and older ministers. Another is that major new interpretations of fundamental doctrines are moving through evangelicalism (i.e. Open Theism) and we are behind that curve ball. Another is too many of our key leaders are too old having not mentored replacements that are connected closely with our rank and file. Too many people believe that discticts are run by good old boy networks - where there is smoke is there fire? Our church planting efforts have not caught fire. Our missionaries are needing much longer itineration to get back to the field. More of those going into missions do not intend it to be a vocation. Etc. etc.

Please do not think I am being in any bit tongue in cheek. If school breaks with tuitions are the kind of things we’re dealing with, then actually I am being melodramatic in my concerns.

Tom &amp; Jan Bougher said...

This discussion about the Holy Spirit surprises me.

When I turn the key to start my car, I know that it started, when I hear the engine running.

But I don’t get anywhere in my car, until I back out of my driveway and put the transmission in a forward gear.

Isn’t that what we are all talking about?

If all that is taught is “How to start the car” – all we’ve done is wasted gas.

This Power has a Purpose – Go and Make Disciples.

With this Power the Disciples and You and Me are better equipped to share the Gospel than we are without it.

Do we have enough proof of people working in this Power? It sure doesn't sound like it!

It may be time for Azusa II?

Timothy Rice said...

maybe the key word is not "initial" or even "physical" (as constructive or constrictive as they may be) but rather "evidence." Evidence is a sign that substantiates the reality of some fact or reality; however, the lack of evidence does not necessarily refute that fact or reality. a lack of evidence ONLY means that I cannot witness to that fact or reality with a certain degree of reliability.

therefore, i have no problem with initial physical evidence because it says to me: this is the only reliable PHYSICAL evidence upon which i can attest that someone has been filled with the Holy Spirit. as others have said...there are other evidences...maybe even better evidences. but when i am praying for someone at the altar and counseling with them to receive this promise, tongues is the only reliable means i have to say to that person, "you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit." if i do not have that "evidence" then i am loathe to say that they have received lest, in fact, they have not. either way, i do not negate the reality of what God has done or is doing in their lives because tongues is only a physical evidence and i treat it as such in that setting.

that is NOT to say i devalue tongues. because THEN you can disciple the "initiate" in that experience and help them understand the value of tongues in their personal devotion and in corporate worship. in my opinion, we load too much of this up into the doctrine of the initial physical evidence.

Quasi A/G said...

So I'm not a credential holder and I haven't been born and bred in the A/G. I did graduate from the seminary with a counseling degree, and I attend a (sort of)A/G church.
(For the record re: the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I always thought that the A/G made something of a leap when they asserted that the pattern in Acts is the absolute way it always works, absolutely. At first I thought it was my secular liberal arts degree leading me astray --as was suggested. But lots of classes and sermons later, my view remains unchanged.)

Anyway, in one of my counseling ethics classes we had a discussion on the ramifications of state licensure for the Christian who is a counselor.
There were many complaints about the ethical dilemmas Jesus caused in light of state requirements for what can and cannot take place in a
counseling setting.
Being licensed as an LPC does offer a lot of perks.
You can make more money (or last bill more insurance companies,) it increases your credibility, it gives you status, and it offers a framework that facilitates your career.
Too many people decided to pursue licensure with full expectation of violating state ethics requirements. Sort of like having your cake and eating it too.

Obviously it's not a perfect metaphor, but I think it does run parallel to signing off on the 16 FT without really believing them to be as fundamental as the A/G proposes they are. Signing off and being credentialed offers some perks. I know people who rationalize their personal incongruence in order to have these perks (I don't mean to downplay the benefits either.) I also have a good friend who cannot in good conscious sign off on them, knowing what they mean to the A/G. She has her M.Div. from AGTS and she serves in full-time ministry to college students through the A/G. I personally think that her life and ministry would be easier if she went all the way with the A/G, but her conviction on the issue leads me to respect her all the more. And it makes it hard for me to feel sympathetic toward those who seek/hold credentials while sliding around the tougher regions of our doctrine.
It also reminds me of the people I knew in college who attended an A/G school and signed off on some holy behavior contract knowing they were going to violate it by either social dancing, social drinking, or social swearing. I always thought it seemed better to go to a school that didn't care if you did those things, otherwise, suck it up and honor the contract you signed.

I agree with Paul G. that this issue should be viewed through an ethical lens, and that signing something you don't really believe is weak, even if it is more advantageous.
Having integrity in this realm has a price, but I don't think that is unusual.

Anonymous said...

Once again we see a thread of discussion on this blog that gets our gander up.Why is this (IPE) such a hot button issue among our ministerial ranks? Why can't we have theological discussions that sharpen our understanding and quicken our spirit? Why does there have to be such a spirit of fear by some who may hold slightly different viewpoints?Would it be a horrible compromise or setback for our movement to say that "Tongues is one of the evidences of a spirit-filled life"? Dr. Cecil M.Robeck Jr. in his impressive article entitled: "An Emerging Magisterium? The Case of The Assemblies of God" writes: "My assertion is that the Assemblies of God has had a growing Tradition and that it has developed a magisterium that is fundamentally determining the doctrinal direction of the Fellowship. My assertion is that those who hold the votes, the members of the General Council, have not had the opportunity to discuss in any open forum whether or not this should be so. The development of a magisterium has been part of an ongoing eighty-seven-year history that has gained ground in recent years"
Robeck continues by questioning the credentialing process that is now in effect for our young ministers. They must answer a question to which no current minister has ever had to respond. The question is, "Do you believe that everyone who is baptized in the Holy Spirit speaks in tongues at the time they are baptized in the Spirit? Those who do not respond in the affirmative are denied further consideration. What this has done is set the stage for a two-tiered ministry. This has precipitated a change in the Tradition without ever bringing the doctrinal discussion to the body that votes on such things, the General Council of the Assemblies of God".
Robeck continues by saying in that same vein: "Over the years, the number of people within the Assemblies of God who have claimed to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the initial physical evidence of speaking in tongues has diminished to a currently alleged level in the low 40 percent range. This is a major pastoral problem that goes to the core of who we say we are."

Our own James Bridges in his book, "The Full Consummation of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit" has his own standard answer why we are in this plight when he writes:
"We can lay this present-day condition of the believers at the feet of the ministry. Had full-gospel ministers been faithful to proclaim the "whole gospel", we would see a strong, healthy Spirit-filled church. It is a spiritually anemic church that looks for loopholes"
My brothers and sistas...this mentality and dogmatism is what we have been dealing with for many years now. Can Dr. George Wood and a new regime help us rediscover an openness and hunger that once characterized this fellowship in early Councils? Have we hammered out all the truth in this area of our Pneumatology? Robeck's concluding paragraph hits the ball out of the park:
"If the lines of fellowship continue to grow higher and thicker, then the Assemblies of God runs a number of risks. The numbers of people who manifest certain desired phenomena will continue to decline.The spirituality of those who remain will become stagnant. Some of the best minds that our churches have nurtured through the years will decline to seek ordination with the Assemblies of God. We will lose both pastors and churches who have "had enough". And scholars who teach in Assemblies of God institutions or who are ordained by the Fellowship will ultimately be required to receive an official mandatum in order to teach acceptable Bible,theology, or church history.
For the sake of the world, we simply must be more tolerant of and open to one another's contributions.We must be as positive, constructive, creative, and honest in our work as we are able to be. Together,then, we will be able to provide viable solutions to the lack of conformity to that which we all truly believe is genuinely apostolic in the Assemblies of God"

This very powerful paper is available at:

The Society for Pentecostal Studies
PO Box 23395
Lexington, KY 40523-3395


A little bitty Pastor

David Copeland said...

I'm glad to see the subject has come up that I feel is a more urgent issue than initial physical evidence: the pride in quite a number of AG pastors and churches that the AG is the only true church: oh no, we don't say it, but the pride is there!

Is the IPE the source of the pride? Is it our success in world missions? I don't know...maybe it has been in some...knowing that pride comes before a fall, I just pray our hearts are right with God in every area...not just with the speaking in tongues.

Anonymous said...

I have occupied assistant and lead positions within AG organizations for 20 years. When I started, I didn't have all of my doctrine hammered out - I was simply regurgitating what I had been taught.

Now, after years of study, I no longer hold so confidently to several of the views.

I have reported this to my district in my renewal. But the one on initial evidence is becoming a problem for me (I find I agree with Flower's position - by the way, thanks to whoever shared that).

The question has been asked: why would someone disagree with the 16 fundamentals and stay in the AG?

Well, God has called me to Pastor these people. I could take the Church out of the AG, but I love many things about our movement. Our Church has grown considerably under my leadership. I am the Pastor they know and whose vision they have bought off on. I know they would follow me.

My point is this: there seems to be an insinuation that it is less than honest to Pastor an AG church without buying off on all 16 fundamentals. But the people I have led to the Lord and discipled and led these years would feel misled if I just left them simply because I have come to some other conclusions in study.

It is a catch 22.

David Letterman said...

Pastor Darrell.....if you would watch my show you would know that my Top Ten Lists are tongue in cheek fun lists with some truth in them. Such is the case with my list I left for you all.

Anonymous said...

I read an interesting quote sometime back.

"When agreement on non-essentials is required for fellowship then division becomes inevitable."

This was written by Bill Johnson of Bethel Church in Redding California, a fast growing church of some 2500 known throughout its city for its evangelism, miraculous healings and ministry to the poor. It is throughly in line with the founding Fathers of the Assemblies in practice....much more so than 98% of our Churches. It recently left the AG.

pastor darrell said...

Bro. Letterman,

Cool.

Italian Servant said...

anonymous of January 15, 2008 8:31 AM,
I think the Robeck's analysis isn't so clever or so smart as it seems. The real issue is this one: when you go with only one or two generations from a very naive approach for hermeneutics, theology and life itself to a more academic, intellectualistic, doubtful one, if the older generation refutes the academic mind but is not able to find a clever, radical middle view of hermeneutics-theology-life, what will you have? a approach that is not debatable, close-minded and seems only dogmatistic as Catholic church for the eye of the new generation. Older generation refute our dotrine and worldy view of things.

The older generation feels that the Holy Revelation they received is something stronger, greater and fuller of Majesty than your/our philosophical, human arguments. They want to preserve this Holy Revelation.

If they could seem that there is more Spirit, more Power, more Truth in our exegetical arguments and that we are able to preserve the real core of the holy revelation they received, they won't feel the need of preserving tradition.

We need a fresh, clever, not-academic Revelation of Christian doctrine, like Parham and like Seymour. They didn't have only experiences, they didn't have only good doctrines. They had Powerful Truth.
Has anyone a calling for Powerful truth? "The truth makes you free" also from all this confusion.

Let's think about this item: I'm not speaking of ghosts, I'm only speaking of spiritual things.

George,
just another thing: we need confrontation with our brothers of AoG in other countries. Italian situation is for many aspects very similar to AoG situation, but what about 16 Fts in other countries? did other countries choose an opener charismatic approach? (I remember so)which were the results? And why while Italy and Usa AoG are wrestling for more and more lacking power, our african brothers or brasilian brothers seem to be stronger than us? (my answer is: western rationalistic culture). How do brasilian and african brothers see us?

These ones are my first suggestions for a more international debate.

Thanks,
Italian Servant

Anonymous said...

I’m amazed that some ministers are fighting for delayed physical evidence over initial physical evidence within the AG. I’ve even heard ministers contend that speaking in tongues is the physical evidence but might be delayed up to 2 weeks. What??? There is absolutely no biblical foundation for delayed evidence at all. I can understand how some will argue a different point using biblical references, sometimes incorrectly, but there is absolutely no biblical basis for the Holt Spirit to take a 2 week, 6 month, or 5 year vacation. It seems that we have found it easier to tell people that they received the Holy Spirit so they won’t be upset, rather than encourage them to continue seeking. This idea of delayed evidence seems to be based on attitudes, theories, and beliefs based on experience rather than the Bible. The AG’s doctrinal foundation is based on the Bible, while it’s not always perfect, it’s even more destructive to the foundation of this fellowship to base our doctrine on personal experience rather than the Bible.


While speaking in tongues is not the only gift of the Holy Spirit evident in today’s church, it would be defined as a distinctive unique to the AG and some other Pentecostal groups. Most Christian denominations have the Fruits of the Spirit as part of their theological doctrines, including the AG, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. I don’t see that as a distinctive of any certain denomination, but rather an assumption of truth in a Christian’s life. Complete acceptance of the Holy Spirit and the available gifts does set us apart. The 8th F.T. is a distinctive that does set us apart and should continue.

Let me clear up one other perceived issue. There seems to be an assumption by some that those who support speaking in tongues as the initial physical evident ignore the many other gifts of the H.S. Wrong… The young men and women I work with are moving in all the Gifts of the H.S. We handle one thing at a time. We encourage them to seek the infilling of the H.S., be baptized in H.S. as evidenced by speaking in tongues, and then help them to be open/desire to be used by the H.S. in other gifts. All along the way, encouraging them to display the Fruits of the Holy Spirit. Doing 'cutting edge' ministry and encouraging a full move of the Holy Spirit can easily be reconciled if we are open, honest, and let the Holy Spirit lead instead trying to figure out a plan with our own human wisdom. This upcoming generation wants to see God’s power move, they want to see all of the Gifts of the Spirit move, they need the supernatural God that they read about in the Bible to move in their lives today. They want everything He has available to them, so let’s not sell them short. ‘Same yesterday, today, and forever.’ I’m concerned that the AG will miss out on what this generation of lost people are really looking for because of trends, perceived fears and misjudging the future by our ministers.

Minister in Zeal

Puzzled Layman said...

I'm a layman that reads this blog with interest. I would like to chime in for a moment from my perspective. I've grown up AG—4th generation. I'm curious if our IE doctrine has not caused folks such as myself to pick up some unwanted thinking along the way. The youth experience at AG events can be quite the pressure cooker to receive the BHS. In that environment, with earnest and emotional kids often whipped into a frenzy, there could be some confusing things happening. What my experience has shown is that youth workers are listening for tongues...and that's it. Then they know that kids have been filled and they can move on to the next kid at the altar. There is often a void left afterwards about what else should be showing up with the BHS.

There is often little to no effort to challenge kids or adults for that matter to display other evidences of BHS. With tongues I'm curious why so much thrust is placed on a sign that is so easily faked. String together a few names of Korean auto manufacturers and you get my drift. I'm not saying that the FT is wrong, but is it complete? I've known a few believers who speak in tongues, but have never lead a person to the Lord. I'm puzzled by that, but they are filled according to our FT.

dgmpls said...

A quick question/statement. At what point do we stop evaluating what we support or don't support in regards to the AOG's doctrine/stands?

Can we hold true the statement from the US AOG position paper about alcohol... "we urge all believers to avoid the Satanic tool of alcohol which destroys lives, damns souls, and blights society," when our brothers and sisters in Europe partake regularly? (Can something only be a "Satanic tool" in the US?) How about the other statement that "Alcohol destroys the body," when recent studies have shown some medical benefits of red wine.

How about us changing our position about divorce and remarriage? Was the Biblical basis for that belief wrong, did the Bible change meaning, or something else?

I'll pose those questions for discussion.

Danny "dj" Morales said...

Agreed Minister in Zeal (Anonymous 10:53 AM) on the delay of physical evidence.

People can point to the day they were saved and the day they were baptized in water, but pointing to a momentous baptism by Jesus all of a sudden is a grey area without a definite sign?

If only we could theologically scrape away everything that does not belong to the Lord's Baptism. This is what has led to confusion, endless debate, denominational pride, and division.

The BHS is a singular and momentous baptism by Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit for the individual. The water of the Holy Spirit is still there for filling, but a baptism is a definitely a definite event for an individual.

Does Scripture teach that holiness, spiritual maturity, the Fruit of the Spirit, or the Gifts of the Spirit come from the Lord's baptism? No.

I for one believe the Lord's Baptism is a covenant act like circumcision, salvation, and baptism in water. These are definite events in an individual's life. Unlike the Gifts of the Spirit, these covenant acts are not meant for the edification of the body at large, but for the individual.

Do these covenant acts translate to holiness, spiritual maturity, Fruit of the Holy Spirit, or the Gifts of the Holy Spirit? No.

I believe this is why Gifts and Fruit of the Spirit can, and often times do, come before the Lord's Baptism. This is why the Vineyardites and Calvarychapelites, for example, experience the gifts apart from the BHS.

All these covenant acts have signs associated with them. Do an online Bible search on the words "sign," "covenant," "flesh," "tongue," "mouth," "blood," "water," and "sprinkle." Combine a couple words at a time in your searches. I hope dots get connected like they were for me.

Furthermore, I believe it's important to separate out the Gifts and Fruit from the Lord's Baptism in doctrinal statements. Why?

1. It gives them their proper emphasis (they shall know us by their fruit - sounds like a distinctive and fundamental to me). Let's advertise that we're all about miracles, faith, and healing (another distinctive).

2. It helps to avoid confusion and misallocation of attributes (eg. the unknown tongue is different in purpose and function than the gift of different kinds of tongues; the Lord's Baptism does not translate to the Fruit; the gift of healing can come before or after the Lord's Baptism, etc.).

3. It teaches.

Hope this helps somebody out there. BTW, I really, really, really want to help the AG too.

Lane Douglas said...

Anonymous (1.15.08 10:53 AM)...

The viewpoint of "delayed evidence" does not teach that the Holy Spirit "takes a vacation." You have to keep in mind that the BoHS is not a situation where we are possessed by the Spirit. It is a situation where we partner with Him. As such, there are two parties involved.

What delayed evidence suggests is that a person DOES receive the ABILITY to pray in tongues, but chooses not to exercise just yet. The HS has done his part, but the human element simply does not provide the vocal chords yet.

Keep this in mind... we teach that tongues is an EVIDENCE for the BoHS and not the CRITERIA to receive it. This means that tongues follows the experience and not vice versa. As such... if the HS gives the experience, and the human receives the ability but fails to vocalize the gift at the initial event... are we to surmise that the HS then takes the gift back?

Granted there is not biblical evidence to support this. But I would not make the case that 3 verses exactly supports the initial evidence side either.

Answer this one for me. If the template in Acts is the clear standard for us, why then do we not expect the following:

1. Tongues of fire over our heads.
2. A reception of the experience only as an apostle lays his hands physically on us.
3. People present from other cultures that understand the language and verify that we are not simply speaking gibberish.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here... only trying to make the case that attempting to state that the doctrine is built on CLEAR biblical examples is not a very solid foundation. PERSONAL EXPERIENCE also plays a large role in supporting this doctrine, and as such, we should not necessarily alienate people who claim a different experience than us. This was the case for J. Roswell Flowers whose personal testimony was for delayed evidence and then later went on to become the General Superintendent of the AG here in the US. Was he wrong?

Anonymous said...

dgmpls...good questions. Saying alcohol damns souls is a stretch if we are saying it damns all souls that partake (I don't partake and have no desire to). On divorce and remarriage I'm glad the position changed and I think it more in line with Scripture now than it was before. It would be interesting to hear what others think.

Will said...

Lane you said, "only trying to make the case that attempting to state that the doctrine is built on CLEAR biblical examples is not a very solid foundation. PERSONAL EXPERIENCE also plays a large role in supporting this doctrine, and as such, we should not necessarily alienate people who claim a different experience than us."

So you're telling me that if I cluck like a chicken and this voice in my head says that was the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, that my personal experience supersedes the only evidences we have that ARE Biblical? Come on now that is mularkey and you know it. You said yourself that the delayed evidence has no biblical foundation, correct? If it has no biblical foundation how can we build on it to help us grow closer to and more like Jesus? The answer to that is we can't. Personal experience can never replace biblical precedent. How do we know that there aren't tongues of fire over a believer when they receive the BITHS? Maybe our eyes aren't open to see these things. And to answer your question of..."if the HS gives the experience, and the human receives the ability but fails to vocalize the gift at the initial event... are we to surmise that the HS then takes the gift back?" The answer to that is no He doesn't take it back, the human just isn't baptized in the Spirit yet. The only physical evidence of the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit that we can see/hear is the tongue that accompanies it. You can exhibit the Fruit of the Spirit without ever being baptized IN the Spirit. The fruit is something that every believer should exhibit, not just Pentecostal believers. If we are gonna start using personal experience to write doctrine then I guess Carlton Pearson ain't far off then. ;^)

Geoff said...

Someone just brought up Alcohol which can be a touchy subject. What about an something that is a little less addicting and or grey.

What about dancing? The AG position paper on dancing is at best humorous!!! I mean I read it and laughed pretty hard!

"It is estimated that large segments of Christian youth in certain parts of the country are attending high school dances and participating in proms. It is ironic that at the same time we recognize the importance of getting our youth involved in "True Love Waits" rallies, some of the same parents feel social dancing is equally good for their child’s development. The caution to be sexually pure is hollow when temptation is encouraged through involvement in dances. Just one life lost for eternity because of a freer interpretation of biblical morality is more than any individual, parent, or church should allow. God is not willing that any should perish, neither should the church be negligent in warning of those practices which may allow it to happen."

This statement alone is hilarious!!! Come on, can we really believe this? I grew in public school and went to these dances and the temptation was never there. In fact, I had friends that went to church with me, we went to the dances together and then hung out afterwards and it was a clean enviroment.

So, lets not just demonize something because of things that "could" happen. If so, then lets get rid of coffee because a person can become addicted to the caffein, or food because someone could become a glutton (hmmm..... hits a little close to home?!?!?!). Just a thought from someone who is a little less than satisfied with the lame excuses...

Anonymous said...

Glutton? Come on now. Let's not approach a subject that would actually apply to our churches and ummmmm Pastor's! We for years in the A/G have been quite selective about our position papers and position on sin. We condemned the smoker for violating the treatment of the body as the temple of the Holy Spirit while on our third trip through the buffet line

Anonymous said...

Lane...you are correct about J. Roswell Flower's testimony about his own Baptism in the Holy Spirit. It does not line up with our traditional viewpoint. In fact, along with British Pentecostal, Donald Gee, both of their experience's do not support our fundamental.Both of these men eventually spoke in tongues but it was in no way immediate. Cecil Robeck contends that both of these men's testimonies were altered or sanitized by someone in the Gospel Publishing House. Quoting from Wayne Warner of the National Archives: "When the article (Gee's) was finally published, Warner was surprised to find that a sentence had been added to what he had written, and it changed completely its meaning. The addition read, "Thus the baptism previously appropriated by faith was experienced in reality." These words appeared neither in Gee's original testimony nor in the copy Warner had submitted for publication". Robeck continues...The result was an addition that was unfaithful to Gee's often-repeated testimony, just as it was unfaithful to the historian who had attempted to write an objective account of what Gee had said and obviously meant" One more quote might help here... "It was a case of historical revisionism intended to support a politically correct institutional position against a testimony that now proves to be an embarrassment"
Lane...By the way, I believe that Roswell Flower was General Secretary but never became General Supt. God Bless..Little biddy Pastor

Paul F. said...

quasi a/g,

I think the problem is that there are many people that love the AG but think it is wrong concerning the IPE doctrine. Of course they could voice their disagreement, but that would mean they get kicked out. If they get kicked out, there is no chance of being able to bring about change. That means the 'fellowship' they love continues to be wrong concerning this issue. So instead they continue to work for change from within. I'm willing to bet that if they saw any instances of the AG changing as a result of those not credentialed with the AG, then we'd see more people willing to say how they really feel. Until then, they'll continue to try to work from within.

Paul F. said...

dgmpls,

I sent a paper critiquing the alcohol position paper to the committee on doctrinal purity almost two years ago. I don't argue for moderate usage in this paper (though that is what I believe), but just show why their interpretation of Scripture isn't suffient to establish their conclusion. I guess they weren't convinced.

If you're interested, you can find a pdf of my paper at faithinformed.wordpress.com/research/ (it's called "A Call to Abstinence?" -- not a very original title I know). I welcome your comments either via email or at my site.

Italian Servant said...

>>> 1) Minister in Zeal,
I liked very much the spirituality of your words. I want only to say that bible didn't teach to "stress" on tongues (I think Peter spoke about tongues to the 3000 in Acts 2, surely he spoke about "the promise" but he didn't say "now! now!" or something like this). This is why I think it's not dangerous Lane's position of delay until someone says "I'm baptized in the Holy Spirit but I don't speak in other tongues". It may be a period of meditation, of intimacy with God when you know you have the BHS (really or by faith... and I'm not sure to be able to separate the two things) but maybe you fear and you're quiet or your tongues seem to you like Korean before your faith becomes strong and you wonderfully speak a true supernatural tongue. I think: don't stress to much on "immediatly evidence".

>>> 2) Puzzled Layman,
maybe there are exceptions and, as I said just some minutes before, period of transation but speaking in other tongues it's NOT AT ALL just like put together two or three names of Korean autos. There is something supernatural in the air when someone receives the BHS (it's only emotion? ok, I'll be atheistic...) and spiritual descernment helps to hear it; but there is also a fluent speaking, not a lot of attempts; there is often impetus... it's not easy to simulate the divine sign. But if a minister loves more statistics that persons, he'll say "another BHS!" after only a yamahahondasuzuki.


>>> 3) Danny "dj" Morales,
you are totally right about scraping away everything that is NOT BHS, but... I fear that you didn't let anything. Only a covenant sign? not for Luke! (Meinzes addresses, and I agree, the spirit-experience has no soteriological meaning for Luke, but only a charismatic one). Only a covenant sign! OH, what a waste of time for me seeking it with prayers and fasts if I could say "I'm saved by only faith in Jesus Christ". And what a waste of time with you, pentecostal brothers... I can turn to my eschatological studies that become more PRACTICAL than BHS!

No, scraping everything from BHS, we have still ANOINTING-OF-POWER-FOR-OTHERS, where the accent is on "for others". At the new birth we were anointing as PRIESTS and KINGS and we knew spiritual power ON US, but at BHS, we were anointing as PROPHETS for THE OTHERS (please note: these ones are the anointings of the Old Testament and it's very difficult to say that only BHS belivers are priests and kings and also to say that every believer without BHS is a prophet). I think this is the biblical way and the radical middle with clear link with empowerment and with mission. If we become stronger about this item, we'll have a strong, clear, wonderful doctrine (exciting doctrine)... the evidential sign for anointing (one-and-forever anointing as in the OT, not repeated) will be more intuitive and we won't have so many problems everytime with sanctified evangelical friends and fruits of the Spirit and so on. I think this is the biblical radical middle: easy to understand, easy to defend, easy to be attractive. I suggest to _ADD_ an FT, and not cancel anything (except for pre-tribulationism, but this is another story ;-)).

In other terms, we need a Neo-classical approach to BHS.

Finally, Lane,
you failed with your biblical examples.
1) Fire and
2) hands
are BEFORE BHS in Acts and, on the other hand, are not always present near the BHS; the third one is present only the first time.

If we think to profession of Luke, surgeon, the not-asked detail of tongue, always near like a symptom to BHS, the common gender of historical recording by the surgeons... everything says: tongues, and only tongues are "regulatory" as evidences.

If you don't like Vineyard, there are also Quackers with a strong accent on experience. I like Charismatic believers, and I'd like that we could work more and more together with a wise interdenominational approach, but biblical truth is too important to say "hello" to tongues as initial evidence.

That's all. Saying I'm boring is now an euphemism.

Italian Servant

Lane Douglas said...

Anonymous...

Thanks for the clarification. You're right about Flower. He was the Gen. Sec., not the Sup. Thanks for the clarification.

Will...

Wow. Where do I start? First off, I don't think you actually read my post before reacting. I did not surmise that personal experience REPLACES biblical precedent. Only that our doctrine is built on a complement between the two. We see what the Scriptures say, and then use our personal experience as a lens to interpret it. The problem is that when we try to defend our position, we only refer to the biblical passages and ignore the interpretative lens of our experience.

As to the "clucking like a chicken," ... that was cute. But Roswell did profess holy laughter at his experience as well as a "divine light." Should we laugh at him and mock that since we don't read of it in Acts?

Additionally, you state that my conclusions are malarkey but then go on to claim that there might actually be tongues of fire over our head but we simply do not have the eyes to see them??? That, in my opinion, is worse than any conclusion I came up with.

Let's assume that you have a point. Then what's to say that some people actually DO pray in tongues yet we simply do not have the spiritual ears to hear it? On those grounds, why do we claim we have to hear the tongues of language yet NOT have to see the tongues of fire?

To repeat... I WOULD NEVER in a million years elevate personal experience over biblical precedent. I am simply making the case that personal experience is a part of our hermeneutic lens so that the statement "the clear biblical example" is a bit misleading.

Italian Servant said...

paul f.,
there is a not logical jump in your sentences about the reaction we need from AoG about IPE's discussions. "if they saw any instances of the AG changing as a result of those not credentialed with the AG, then we'd see more people willing to say how they really feel". We just need a real love and wise discussion about it. We just need that someone is able to hear, think and also after two years give good answers about our doctrinal objections. We don't need a random or a relativistic change. And I think on the other part that AoG big bosses are able to show love if they find a humble "I don't know, really I want to hear and understand" and not an accademically young, arrougant "I REALLY KNOW, I know what is the solution".

I want to finish saying that I'm optimistic about AoG's future. We are on the right direction. Humbly, the younger generation is understanding the right direction from the HUGE amount of errors of the older one. We see and painfully learn. It's hard, it takes time, but when the next generation will arrive at the command of the movement, in 10 or 20 years it will destroy all the not-biblical hyper-puritan aptitudes (like about alcohol, dances, movies and so on) and it will declare a spiritual, wise, biblical, powerful FREEDOM to heavens, earth and seas...

apocalipticus,
Italian Servant

Beaty said...

Pastor Grabill:

Amazing post!!! I so appreciate you call for integrity among us. Our staff was just going to the Maxwell training today and discussing what integrity is, and I think you hit the nail on the head.

Paul F:

Always good to hear from you my friend. Your comments are always what I wanted to say, just much better than I could have written them. Give me a call sometime soon.

As to the issue of integrity, is it not just as important that we have personal integrity as we do an appropriate doctine of salvation? Living a life as an Image-bearer of the One True God is a breathing soteriology. Having integrity and being His representative proves that He is who he said He was; Son of God, born of a virgin, sinless in life, substitutionary in death, atoning in risen Lordship, and returning again one day for a people who look like Him.

I pray for the day in which we have a fellowship that allows for a more diversity of theological positions without the looming of credential refusal, but it will take to work of we who ascribe to all 16 FT as they are on the behalf of those who do not. One day we are going to realize that people are more important than polity or production.

pastor darrell said...

If anyone is interested. I found that I have had good success and no trouble with my evangelical and Vineyard friends by simply saying that "being filled with the Holy Spirit" is a more inclusive term than being baptized in the Holy Spirit. That as a Pentecostal I believe that spiritual infillings happen to true believers that seek the Lord even that are not baptized with the Holy Spirit. So I can honor the experiences of the Bill Bright, Vineyard, Third Wave, or Billy Graham or CMA type of believer as being real, valid, and important; while still challenging them to seek the experience that is described in Acts 2, 8, 10-11, 19 and 1 Cor. 12, 14.

I have never been accused of spiritual one-upmanship by my evangelical friends who are not rabid cessationists. I have also never had to try to be very clever and mantally dextrous in explaining away the experiences of Church heros who did not testify to ever having spoken in tongues. This means that I can love and honor John and Charles Wesley (for example)as men of the Spirit while still telling my Free Methodist friend to seek the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues. I do not invalidate but honor the infillings of the Holy Spirit he has experienced, but I do not equate infilling and the Baptism directly. It's worked for me easily.

Brad Leach said...

Wow. I wish I could have taken more time to engage in this discussion. It's a good one.

In many districts, the credential renewal is the only ongoing, annual accountability check point for AG ministers.

Paul's post brought up the doctrinal accountability that the renewal calls for. But I'm curious why we don't prioritize other issues of accountability; namely fruitfulness and effectiveness in ministry.

Under our current system, if someone develops a different perspective on one of the 16 FT they can be held accountable. But at the same time we might have many ministers continuing to agree with the doctrinal statement from year to year while also going twenty years without demonstrating any visible fruit in ministry.

I understand that effective ministry doesn't always show up visibly. But fruit seemed to be an important measurement to Jesus (John 15.5).

What we measure says alot about what we value. I'm not opposed to doctrinal accountability. I'm just wondering if we should be holding each other accountable in other areas as well.

It would be challenging to measure fruitfulness/effectiveness in ministry, but maybe it's a challenge that more of us need.

George P. Wood said...

Good point, Brad!

But, dude; you're getting married in four days. Don't you have better things to be thinking about than the vagaries of Pentecostal doctrine?

George

Will said...

Lane, I did read your post several times before I responded. And the way I responded was the way that I took that post from you. The quote from your post that was the basis came across as the personal experience being more important, at least that's how it came across to me, but I have been wrong before and will be again more than likely. I do agree that there are times when the Baptizer is there and wants to baptize, but the baptizee just isn't ready doesn't yield or whatever. BUT, to say that they are Baptized in the Spirit at that point and they just haven't spoken in tongues doesn't line up with scriptural precedent. That is the point I was trying to make.

As for the comment on the not being able to see the fire. Let me ask you this. Do you believe in angels and demons? Do you see them all the time? Do you see them in your church every sunday? They are probably there doing their best to disrupt the service even though we can't see them. So, why couldn't the flame be there and yet our spiritual eyes not be open to see it? It's possible isn't it? On the other hand, according to scripture the only way to know that someone has been baptized in the Holy Spirit is to HEAR them speak in tongues. I don't believe that you are until it's heard. You can be awfully close but not quite there.

Brad Leach said...

That's a better point George!

And now I've got to take even more time to go look up the meaning of "vagaries":)

ebagpastor said...

Just a short comment on this earlier thought that was mentioned: "But at the same time we might have many ministers continuing to agree with the doctrinal statement from year to year while also going twenty years without demonstrating any visible fruit in ministry."

It is my experience that accountability concerning fruitfulness in ministry does occur, but on the local church level. My Board, and our church in general, is typically smart enough to discern if we are doing well as a church, or doing poorly, and if we are growing or if we are shrinking. They expect me, as the Pastor to be leading the church along towards being healthy, vital, and growing. If I am not, they (usually the Deacons) generally are not hesitant to call me on it, and hold me accountable. (I am sure every church is different though.)

In light of the ag's governmental structure, where individual churches have the ability to hire and fire, I would say they are the primary ones keeping an eye on ministry fruitfulness and accountability. It is definitely in their best interest to have a Pastor who is "demonstrating visible fruit."

Lane Douglas said...

Will...

I understand what you are saying, mainly because I have heard this argument since the time I was born. (I'm a 3rd Gen AG kid who went to church 3x/week for the entirety of my childhood and teenage life).

Let me try my point once more though:

1. You are maintaining that the BoHS has not occurred until the person speaks in tongues in a manner such that the human ear can audibly hear it.

2. You then state that your reason for this stance is because it is the biblical precedent.

3. As far as I can tell, you only have 3 verses to work from (Acts 2:4; 10:46; and 19:6)

4. Thus, from your stance, we should be able to make an all-encompassing statement that the minimum number of verses necessary to claim a biblical precedent is 3 verses. (Do you agree with this?)

So, based on the above concept, here's what I see:

1. In Matt. 3:11 and Luk 3:16, John the Baptist clearly proclaims that Jesus' baptism will be with fire.

2. In Acts 2, Luke CLEARLY states that "they saw" what seemed like tongues of fire separate and come to rest on them.

Here is what I am trying to get from you, Will. In your theology, the reason I should not expect tongues of fire is because I only have 1 verse while you have 3. Is this correct?

I am less trying to "test" your theology as I am your (and the classic AG) opinion of hermeneutics. I hear all the time "the clear biblical precedent" is that tongues must be audible for the BoHS to have occurred. To this I reply... "Three verses constitutes a 'clear biblical precedent?'"

Please keep in mind here that I am not questioning tongues as a valid sign of the BoHS. I am questioning the theology that (A) they have to simultaneously happen together, and (B) that the tongues have to be audible to the human ear. It are these two premises that I question us using the phrase "clear biblical precedent."

The REAL answer is that our personal experience from Azusa Street onward has helped us to form our hermeneutic on this issue. I'm not saying we are wrong, just that we should own up to the fact that our doctrine rests on TWO pillars and not one. The only reason that the Scriptures in Acts are CLEAR to us is because we believe we have experienced it. To the rest of the world, we are trying to use 3 verses to make our experience NORMATIVE for everyone else.

Suddenly, along comes another person who says they also experienced the BoHS, just that they didn't speak in tongues until 1 day later. They have the same sign as us, only they experienced it differently. When asked for a biblical precedent, they refer to Acts 4:31; 8:12-17; and 9:17 where tongues is not yet mentioned. The reason we will tell them they are wrong is because our EXPERIENCE has informed our hermeneutic. But in their world, they will claim the same thing. So who is right?

As to you last point about demons and angels... of course I believe in them. What I am asking of you is why Luke wrote the words "they saw" the tongues of fire. What was his agenda in pointing out that others visibly saw it. Wasn't he trying to set a precedent?

Chad Dvoracek said...

Interesting discussion so far. Personally I think that the IPE seems to be present in all the times of the baptism. I am going by memory but this is three times...right?? We can come to the conclusion that tongues was the sign, but we can't say 100% because we are deducing this by looking at the experience. No where in the Bible does it actually state that tongues is the ONLY IPE or that it happens immediately always. Why did Luke not record Paul speaking in tongues as the sign of being filled in Acts 9. Now we know Paul did speak in tongues and was filled, but why didn't Luke record the evidence. Why isn't there a doctrinal teaching on the IPE in the New Testament?? So if we add this record to the other three we are only at 75% IPE. Does it mean Paul didn't...NO...but it doesn't mean he did either. We can only speculate. Speculation always has a certain degree of improbability.

We also know that Paul spoke saying that "I wish that you all spoke in tongues." Why did he say that other then the fact that some did not. We don't know why, we don't know if it was in relation to personal tongues or corporate tongues, but either way...some did not. Add this the the ratio of probability. All I am saying is that we can be pretty certain, but not absolutely certain.

What about human resistance? How many of you have resisted what God wanted you to do at a given time? The question is can human behavior allow us to be baptized and not speak in tongues because of fear of embarrassment. This can absolutely cripple some people because there personality make them shy. Yes there is all the arguments the other way, like God gives boldness etc. etc.

So then if a person refuses to speak in tongues for whatever reason, does that mean that they didn't receive? From what I read the baptism comes then tongues, not tongues causing the baptism? Can a deaf person that cannot speak be filled with the Holy Spirit? What if they cannot make a sound? I think that God has more mercy and is more interested in the fruit and purpose for being filled then with the IPE. If God was that interested in the IPE don't you think there would have been more specific teaching on it?

I know these are all arguments from the humanistic approach, but this is reality. The question becomes are we so 100% sure that you can't be filled unless you speak in tongues. I am pretty sure that IPE should follow in most cases but not in ALL 100%. Somewhere we need to allow God to be God and humans to be who God made them and let God sort it all out. In the end God will fill whom HE chooses, and the fruit of their lives will be the evidence.

I have met many people that speak in tongues personally and publicly that have no other signs of the fruit of the spirit (clang, clang). Yet I also have seen God use people in incredible ways that did not speak in Tongues and had every other fruit of the Spirit in overflowing abundance.

Maybe IPE is an issue, but its not the MAIN issue. This is what I believe. If this lack of 100% sure all the time makes my declaration on the form a lie or a misrepresentation then I am in error of my action. If my stating of this makes me incompatible with the AG...I am sure someone will be contacting me soon.

Anonymous said...

Dear "Puzzled Layman" Jan. 15, 2008,

You have well articulated what a lot of our members have experienced and noticed around the "altars". Evangelists and guest speakers who listen for the smallest of syllables that would indicate that someone was "filled" with the Holy Spirit.Suspicion about people "faking it" by people of average intelligence. Wayne Robinson in his book "I once spoke in Tongues" wrote:

"In the past few years, I have become more and more convinced that the test, not only of tongues but of any religious experience, cannot be limited to the logic and truthfulness supporting it.There is also the essential question,"What does it do in one's life?" More specifically, does it turn a person inward to self-concern and selfish interests, or does it open him up to others and their needs?
I know people who testify that speaking in tongues has been the great liberating experience of their lives. But juxtaposed with them are a great many others for whom speaking in tongues has been an excuse to withdraw from confronting the realities of a suffering and divided world. For some tongues has been the greatest thing to ever happen;others have seen it disrupt churches,destroy careers, and rupture personal relationships."
That insight comes from someone who worked with Oral Roberts for many years. So, with our distinctive doctrine we have a mixed bag...a source of blessing and a source of dissension. Just how many have been "turned on " or "turned off" by what goes on in our churches may never be fully calculated. The ACMR is certainly not an accurate instrument in measuring these inward reactions.

Chad Dvoracek said...

Lane, you and I must have been typing at the same time. We state very similar ideas. But based on the two other accounts that you mentioned that puts us at three with tongues and three without(forgot about those other two verses). That puts the probability at 50% instead of even 75%. Might it have happened...YES...but it might not have happened there either. If we use the deductive method like how we do for the IPE, we could just as easily deduce that it doesn't always have to happen because it is not declared as such in the other three account. As Lane mentioned there is some issues here with the hermeneutical method.

Pablo D. vizcay said...

Congratulations to all for the spirit of love in this discussion. Thats one distinctive that we all agree on.

Congratulations, Blessings, and best wishes to Mr. and Mrs. Leach.

Lane Douglas said...

Chad...

You raised great points. I've heard those examples regarding the deaf and the mute but had forgotten them!

Consider this one, in Luke 1:15, the angel states that John the Baptist would be "filled with the HS from birth." According to the AG doctrine, this means the infant had to speak in tongues during the delivery process, possibly even before crying.

Sounds funny, but I am actually being serious. If we are going to use the words, "clear biblical precedent," ... it means that our stance has to be true ALL THE TIME in EVERY SITUTAION... even John's birth.

Anonymous said...

Lane..If John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost at birth and in fact, spoke in tongues before he cried, could it not also be true as Benny Hinn said: "Eve was originally meant to give birth from her side"?

Will said...

Lane, I want to answer you in order of your questions.

1. Yes because we are talking about our FT that says, the initial physical evidence.

2. Yes there is the biblical precedent. And while yes there are only 3 verses that SPECIFICALLY identify tounges and baptism of the Holy Spirit going hand in hand, the other verses that follow that are being identified as verses that aren't specific, you can infer that the same situation was present and the same wording was used to describe the incident minus the identifier of they spoke in tongues. If everyday of the year, minus holidays, the postman shows up at your door and leaves mail in your box and I visit your house and tell you that the mailman was just there what would you infer? That he delivered mail right? I believe the same principle can be applied here. While you claim that I have only 3 verses you really don't have any to back your point of view. And as to the question of how many constitute precedent, in a court you only really have to have one case to set precedent, the bible says that in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses, I mean how many would you prefer 10, 20, 480,000?

3.Yes I have 3 and those who support anything else have 0.

4. I would say that yes we have enough for a precedent where the phraseology is consistent with the precedent setting verses.

Why you should not expect fire every time someone is baptized in the Holy Spirit is, I don't know.

The personal experience from Azusa onward has to be filtered by what the Word says. There have been a lot of fallacies, heresies, and questionable theologies that have arisen since then and the only way we have of debunking them is to filter them through the word. Personal experience is important in the life of the believer, yes, but is not the end all. I know you aren't putting that out as your way of thinking on this but some people who might read this may think so.

As for the other person, we will agree that they are baptized in the Holy Spirit and will differ on when the evidence of it was clear. My question to you is what evidence do you present as someone being baptized in the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues? I don't think you can present any.

As for Luke saying they saw the fire I believe that he was pointing out to his readers that Jesus promised a baptism by fire and when he pointed that out he was making reference to this experience being the one Jesus promised. That's my take on it.

Lane Douglas said...

Anonymous...

I'm not sure the connection you are implying, and nor do I hold Benny Hinn as a reputable exegete... but I should be clear that I DO NOT believe John the Baptist spoke in tongues at birth. I am trying to show how the phrase "clear biblical precedent" is not something we, as Pentecostals, should use when talking about the IPE.

Lane

Lane Douglas said...

Will...

You said...

My question to you is what evidence do you present as someone being baptized in the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues? I don't think you can present any.

I just gave you three verses where people were filled with the Spirit and no record of tongues is given at all. How is that not evidence?

I know that you answer is that we "infer" tongues in these passgaes, but by saying that, you satisfied my curiosity. You talk of "clear precedent" while using the word "infer" in your description of your hermeneutic. To me, that is plainly contradictory. If you have to talk of "inferring" anything, you should simply say "a probable biblical precedent."

George P. Wood said...

I would say that personal testimony of having been baptized in the Holy Spirit counts for evidence, not to mention an obvious change in the lifestyle of the person so baptized. The former is a subjective evidence, which can perhaps be inferred from Scripture. The latter is a far more substantial evidence, deduced from a variety of places in Scripture, such as Paul's description of the Spirit's fruit in Galatians 5. Also, please note that Article 7 of the Fundamental Truths lays out what Spirit baptism accomplishes in the life of the believer. If someone evinces those qualities in their life, shouldn't that count as evidence of something?

Tom &amp; Jan Bougher said...

Lane – You spoke about the 3 verses that the A/G uses to maintain their stand on validating the Initial Evidence of receiving the HS.
You have to ask the question that I believe, Luke left to our understanding – How did they know that they were filled, unless they HEARD? (Implied information – because they heard the same thing they had heard before – unknown tongues.)

And remember, if you are looking for conclusive evidence, you begin to sound like another denomination – they believe that musical instruments are not godly, because they are not mentioned in the New Testament.

Chad – Regarding deaf people receiving the HS. I was at CBC from 1970 to 1974. The chapel records will validate what I heard – deaf students speaking in tongues.

And Paul said (in I Cor. 14:18) “I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.”
I believe that when Ananias placed his hands on Saul (Acts 9 :17-19) and said be filled with the Spirit, it happened.

How did Ananias know that Saul was filled?
Implied: He spoke in an unknown tongue.

I have many friends who pastor at other than A/G denominations. When they pray for people who are sick they always add “Father IF it is your will, heal this person.”

When you are unable to explain why God heals sometimes and not at other times, it may seem easier to say “It just wasn’t God’s will.” I believe that, because of the human desire to answer the unknown – they have diluted the power of God to Heal today.

We won’t always be able to understand why someone doesn’t speak in tongues and others do – that doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit isn’t real. Or that tongues are not the initial evidence. Are we assuming that being filled means being made perfect?

Why do we want to come up with another standard? Is it because some people don’t act like Christians after they are filled with the HS? Growing in Christ is not a one time event. Neither should be, being filled with the Spirit.

If we have made being filled with the Holy Spirit an all purpose, one time event that cures all and prepares us for heaven instantaneously, we are only one step up the ladder from once saved always saved.

Lane Douglas said...

Tom & Jan (and everyone else...)

Please, please keep in mind the point I am trying to make. I AM NOT trying to separate tongues as an evidence from the BoHS.

I am, instead, trying to get us to quit saying "clear biblical precedent." Since our hermeneutic mandates that we use words like "we can infer," and "Luke is implying," ... we can't say "clear." Because it is NOT CLEAR to everyone.

Instead, I think we need to say "the probable precedent." This leaves room for humility in our interpretation and will open up massive doors of dialog since it does not alienate others.

Will said...

Lane, if the same writer writes one thing as being so, wouldn't it be so in other instances of the same incident? Here's what Horton has to say on the subject. "Children's Writers and Illustrators Market
Signs of the Outpouring

If all the references to Pentecostal enduement in the Book of Acts are put together, the overwhelming evidence is that tongues was the initial, physical sign or evidence of receiving the experience. Since we do acknowledge the historical description in Acts as having a theological purpose and holding a pattern for the Church today, there is strong ground for our conviction that those who would be filled with the Spirit should expect to have the witness of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit enables them.
(from Bible Doctrines: A Pentecostal Perspective © 1993 by Gospel Publishing House. All rights reserved.)"

George, those traits and the fruit of the Spirit can be in any beleivers life. So my question to you is what other evidence do we have? The one specifically mentioned by scripture is the speaking in tongues. How do we use anything different? Help me see the side you and Lane are putting out?

Will said...

Sorry for the Childrens Illustrators and Authors market part of that last post. I was searching for a book for my wife on Amazon and forgot to clear the clipboard!!!

Will said...

You can't have a probable precedent though Lane. You either have a precedent or you don't. There ARE things that are just black and white.

Will said...

And how is the IPE as we believe it not clear to everyone? I think it's only not clear to those who don't want it to be. My opinion though.

Lane Douglas said...

Seriously, Will???

To claim that the IPE is a black and white issue means you have absolutely nothing further to learn or glean from those passages. We, as Pentecostals, have discovered the truth and our interpretation is perfectly infallible and cannot be challenged in any way, shape or form. Seriously?

And the only people not clear on the IPE are those people who have arrogantly chosen to NOT WANT to believe it? What a dark, and sinister view of your brothers and sisters in the extended family of God.

Seriously, Will??

Lane Douglas said...

To clarify...

I use the word "probable" to reflect our humility and willingness to learn further on this issue. (i.e. - "We believe that there is "probably" a precedent there, but we are willing to be wrong.") I'm not using it to suggest that the precedent is only part way true.

Will said...

Are you kidding me? We go from talking about how this applies to our FT's and now I have a dark and sinister view of other brothers and sisters?? That's quite a leap there Lane!! My comments on this are confined to how this applies to AG ministers and churches. What else are we going to learn and glean from those passages, that there is something hidden in the code of that passage that says, "Oh yeah this isn't the only physical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit?" You said earlier in your first post here that the way it is written you agree with it. Here is the bottom line of what I believe. As far as physical evidence goes, PHYSICAL, tongues are the initial, which to me means 1st, physical, something you can hear, see, touch, taste, feel, evidence we have. That is something we do have precedent for. Lane you can chop it up, hermeneuter it, pneumatoligize it all you want and you still won't come up with a different PHYSICAL evidence to demonstrate the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Let me pose this question, if you are gonna take evidence of someone's life, their fruit if you will, as evidence of Baptism in the Holy Spirit, what do we then do with those that have never asked Jesus to be their Savior and Lord, they live a great life, better than some who claim to be a believer, they even exhibit the fruit of the Spirit and yet have never accepted Christ? How do we deal with that? There are lots of people that live lives according to scriptural principles and have evidence of the fruit, yet don't have a relationship with Jesus period.

I don't believe that arrogance is the case with not believing the IPE as we hold it in the AG, I believe it's a combination of pride, rebellion, and ignorance.

Lane Douglas said...

I yield, Will...

I knew entering this argument what I was up against. I'm not sure how many times I can say that I am not trying to remove tongues as an evidence yet you seem bent interpreting that as my angle.

Anonymous said...

This debate is much ado about nothing. Is this debate or position going to change anyone on here as far as how they live their life presently? Is it going to change anything in the A/G? Is it going to change how you minister? For those of you that are so dogmatic about everything and "black and white" as one person said.....we don't have a corner on knowing everything and if a subject generates this much debate it is obviously not as black and white as you would like to think.

Will said...

Lane I too lay it down. The reason it seems that, as you say, I am bent on saying you are trying to remove tongues is because everytime I or anyone else disagrees with you, you return to them not being the only evidence, as you so put in your agreement with Flower. The taking out of tongues as we believe it in the AG FT's, is how one would take what you are saying. But then again, you say one time that you agree with it how it's written and then on another occasion say it's not the only evidence. I have never said that there is no other evidence to someone baptized either, but yet that is what is being put on me. I agree that if we are truly baptized in the Spirit then we will exhibit all those things listed in the description in our FT's. What I am saying is those are secondary evidences and that the sign of tongues is the initial, first, physical evidence of that Spirit Baptism. Does that help to clarify my take? Or does it not?

George P. Wood said...

Do we in the AG believe that a person who evinces the character and behavior described in Article 7 has not been Spirit-baptized if he has not spoken in tongues, according to Article 8?

Chad Dvoracek said...

Wow guys. This is going downhill fast. Let's not attack one anothers character, this is not about character this is about doctrine, they are NOT the same.

I think what we are seeing here is some of the reason why Pastor are leaving the AG. Are we that inflexible to acknowledge that the possibility exists? Is #8 a big enough issue to be the one that says you are in or out over this one. It looks like a hard and fast line is being drawn in the sand that the scripture didn't intend to be there.

I think the scriptures aren't that absolutely clear that the possibility can't exist that someone might be baptized with the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues as the IPE.

Tom and Jan, I understand where you are coming from but disagree that we can automatically infer that they "heard" tongues as the evidence. It's logical, but not absolute. In word used to describe Simon's experience was horao (transliterated) with is the ideas of perceiving, to experience, to look but without the strong evidence on the eye (ie Greek blepo). He perceived, he didn't hear or see. I would thing the physician choose his words carefully. If he meant heard, why didn't he use that word?

All I saying is "Does the possibility exist that one MIGHT be able to be baptized without the IPE." Tom and Will, to infer is not proper exegesis. To infer does not create fact it creates an opinion or commentary. To exegete all the the passages properly we can only come to this: "Our best and logical guess is that the IPE seems to be Tongues, but it cannot, through proper exegesis, be stated as fact, absolutely all the time."

pastor darrell said...

Lane says “yield” but just means that he's tired of the debate. Will wins, but what's the prize?

I'm not advocating all that Lane said but here's a query. Since we are sanctified by Christ and yet not perfected in practice, cannot a similar "Now and not yet" possibility exist in the BoHS? If a person's weak faith, poor teaching, ignorance, fear etc. restrain them from manifesting something that is, in fact, their's in Christ, is the manifestation temporarily being delayed evidence of them not having the thing? Why or Why not? Who among us would not admit to having sub-biblical experiences of some aspects of what scripture affirms the Spirit has already done for us?

I don't see the problem with delayed evidence regarding tongues and the BoHS any more than I do with other areas of life. Delay does not equal denial. I think we simply love people who are in such conditions and smilingly challenge them to not accept their sub-biblical experience as definitive but to press on until their experience conforms to the biblical norms. Beyond which, everyone believes in some inevitable degree of delay because we all agree that the one baptized in the Spirit has something that happens within his spirit at least some infinitesimal amount time before it manifests in their body. Aren't some signs only the size a man's hand?

Lane Douglas said...

George...

The answer to your question is "yes." If a person has yet to evidence the "prayer language," (FT8) we hold that they have not yet received the Baptism defined in FT7. The formers is the signifying evidence that the latter has occurred.

It is because of this that I wrote earlier that when we say "initial" we really mean "immediate."

ebagpastor said...

Here is a question I have been asked by parishoners from time to time, and from non-A/G pastor friends. I'd love to hear some feedback on this question from you all.

We A/G folks revere the book of Acts, and claim that God works exactly the same way now, that He did then. We are very dogmatic about the baptism in the Holy Spirit, and tongues. (As am I, a proud credential signer.)

But, why don't we likewise expect & experience the following things, also in the same book of Acts? After all, there is "clear Biblical precedent":

*Choosing leaders by casting lots?
*Physical tongues of fire descending on us?
*Foreigners routinely understanding our "prayer tongues" in their native language?
*Churches that physically shake during prayer meetings?
*Communal living & shared wealth?
*People who are dishonest about tithing/giving dropping over dead? (Offerings would sure be a lot more interesting!)
*People being healed by our shadows?
*Preachers being supernaturally teleported to new locations after performing baptismal services?
*Continuing Paul's handkerchief healing ministry?

The question is "how can we be so selective and so dogmatic in defending tongues, when we so easily dismiss these other supernatural events in the same book of Acts as not 'normative?' Isn't this really a huge theological double standard?"

Anyone want to share a good answer to this? Obviously I have my own answer, but I will withhold it as I do not want to influence your answer. Thanks!

Anonymous said...

ebag pastor.....what about an apostolic form of church government from Acts as well?

Anonymous said...

"Wowser!" What a closing statement Will...in regard to your rebuttal to Lane's post:

"I don't believe that arrogance is the case with not believing IPE as we hold in the AG, I believe it's a combination of pride, rebellion and ignorance"

Are you kidding me? That statement just reeks with a smell to high heaven! That's really a viewpoint probably held by 50% of our ministerial ranks and you articulated it so well. Questioning any of our sacred cows is tantamount to heresy and eventual apostasy.No wonder many of the younger don't want to apply. To be branded in such a way, as prideful,arrogant and ignorant!!

Italian Servant said...

lane, will,
I try to make a very simple

_______________

>>>>SUMMARY<<<<
_______________


(also for the new readers of the comments) and I want to know if you agree.

We have an old, black&white approach to BHS and evidences with WILL and others and a new, changing approach to BHS and evidences from LANE and others.

1) RELATIVISM against DOGMATICISM

Lane repeats that he has nothing against IPE, he wants only a "probably".

2) FELLOWSHIP against EXCLUSIVISM

Will is for an approach like this: "You don't believe in IPE? Well, you're out".

It's not easy, but I realy want tounderstand the issue and addresses the conversation in the right direction. Could Will and Lane help me (and us)?

Will said...

Anonymous 12:31, I am a younger. I'm only 30. How is one of the FT's a sacred cow? Sacred cow is not moving the piano or taking down the senior portrait of Jesus with the light behind His head. Sacred cow is putting up the same christmas decorations that have been being put up since the AG was started in Hot Springs. Questioning them isn't bad, signing your card saying you believe them and not believing them is bad. Not believing the IPE and referenced scriptures as they are stated in the FT's does wreek of all those things I mentioned. It to me says that I know better than people who are, at least to me, smarter than me. That is rebellious, prideful, and ignorant. I don't do it cause I know better. Some people do cause they don't.

Are there things I question and don't necessarily agree with 100%, even in the FT's? Maybe, but if there are they are my own personal things I wrestle with.

Tom &amp; Jan Bougher said...

Chad – (This is Tom, Jan will have to speak for herself.)

I would also like to remind you of what Luke wrote regarding the event at the home of Cornelius. Acts 10:44-46. This particular event was amazing to the Jewish/Christians, because the Holy Spirit was poured out on even the Gentiles.
How did they know? Vs. 46 “They heard them speaking in tongues.”

You asked, “Does the possibility exist that someone has been filled with the Holy Spirit and has not spoken in tongues?”

What other method do we have to evaluate your question, other than the inferred/implied and written “heard them speaking in tongues’?

What is being discussed here are valid questions, but aren’t they really about being a part of a community of believers known as The Assemblies of God?

These 16 FT are what make us different than other fellowships/denominations. We used to call them our Pentecostal Distinctives. And they were what drew people to our churches. Could it be that our desire to be inclusive has led us away from what God intended? Through our desire to be seeker friendly, have we forgotten who we are?

Someone added, that those kind of statements seem arrogant. God forbid. I want everyone to know who Jesus is and be filled with His Power and change their world.

Those words may seem arrogant, if you are Buddhist or Muslim, because you have your own beliefs. But according to Jesus, He is the only way to Heaven. If I don’t tell you about the only way to get to Heaven – you spend eternity in Hell. Are we confusing “being bold” with “being arrogant”? Isn’t becoming “Bold” part of what the HS is supposed to do in our lives?

We have heard people remind us about Brother Flower’s experience. I don’t have any problem with his experience. Saul saw a great light and was knocked off of his horse. But later he received the HS when Ananias laid hands on him. For me, that does not diminish the Supernatural Experience he had on the road to Damascus. I believe that Brother Flowers truly had a Supernatural Experience, before he was filled with the HS.

If the A/G (as we currently know it) doesn’t change their beliefs to match ours, are we considering independence?

(I am NOT advocating a mutiny and I don’t believe you are. These are sincere questions regarding the HS.)

Most of us agree that:
What was determined as the truths that make us A/G are written in our 16 FT.
If we move away from those truths, we are deciding to create a new set.
FYI: This is exactly how Non-Denominational and Inter-Denominational churches start.
The amazing thing about Non- Denominational churches and Inter-Denominational churches is after they pull out of their denomination, they often do 2 things:
1. Create their own set of beliefs – like their own 16 FT.
2. Find a similar group to join – we all need community and accountability and encouragement.

So, the cycle continues.

Italian Servant said...

ebagpastor,
I'm trying to repeat theat we need a common, strong hermeneutics before new structures or FTs.

The answers to your examples are easy. And I can summarize with two examples: why do we search the spiritual gifts and we don't seek for angels? I want to see an angel! Peter and Philip did! Why not? 1 Corinthians says "seek for spiritual gifts". Nobody in the bible says "seek for an angel view".

And so for IPE?

Acts 2.38: "You will receive the promise. This is for you... and everyone that is called by the Lord".

Evidence is expected about this waiting in the book of Acts and evidence is found; and the only sign that "stops" the pending patience is tongues. (This is for Lane:) Fire didn't stop the pending patience, it was BEFORE the baptism in the Holy Spirit (let's see in the verses).

Summary of comments for new readers said...

I like very much the natural evolution of the discussion and I like the three directions that it takes:

1) Will againt Lane means RELATIVISM/FELLOWHIP against DOGMATICISM/EXCLUSIVENESS. This is a focal point that emerges and we MUST answer to this problem generally speaking and not only about IPE or BH (but this is the reason that begins this discussion);
2)HERMENEUTICS (SPECIALLY OF THE BOOK OF ACTS): why do we choose to read some things as normative? It's a weak or a strong hermeneutics?
3)G.P. WOOD'S POSITION: 1 and 2 are important discussions but FOCUS ON FRUITS AND RESULTS. Can be this a general answer?


Italian Servant

Anonymous said...

It's amazing that we argue over this! The Holy Spirit is so much bigger than tongues! However, growing up in an A/G and indy Pentecostal environment (that incorporated all the AG trappings - RR, M'ettes, etc.) I thought the H.S. only about speaking in tongues. The truth is that the H.S. indwells us @ conversion!!! I believe that everyone can have a personal prayer language and should seek it and that the gift of tongues (publicly) is not for everyone! However, we are so into our "distinctive" that we relegate the HS to an experience. I remember the guilt I felt for not speaking in tongues, but when I did I thought I was part of the club. As I researched in teens & early 20's and in Bible school, I'm comfortable with the fact that I have a personal prayer language, but I received the HS at conversion. We piously look down at other denominations because they aren't "full gospel" or they don't experience the HS, when the truth is we have made the HS an experience coupled with emotionalism and condemnation for those that don't receive it. What if we had a balanced view and understanding of the HS and taught more about Him and not be so dogmatic about a manifestation. When I see the passion in holding to this doctrine, I begin to understand why we are losing our influence and declining! May we stop being so arrogant because we have "it" and everyone else don't!!! I love the AG, but feel that we are too much about the little issues and argue about them while the world goes to hell and we speak in tongues...

Tom &amp; Jan Bougher said...

ebagpastor – What is an ebag pastor?
I will do my best to fill in some blanks for you:(Note: This is my opinion, not the next FT.)
1. Choosing leaders by casting lots? Most would say this wasn’t God’s plan to replace Judas. Proof: Did you ever hear of Matthias again?

2. Physical tongues of fire descending on us? I’ve read about churches who are in the midst of a great move of God and the Fire Department shows up – someone reported seeing a fire.

3. Foreigners routinely understanding our "prayer tongues" in their native language? Again, I have heard of people getting saved when that happened. Don’t forget that God is the creator of language – I don't think that He has run out of new ones?

4. Churches that physically shake during prayer meetings? Ever read about Jonathan Edwards? Or the Quakers? I’ve experienced a Holy laughter meeting and a Brownsville altar call – very moving! FYI:They both shook me to the core.

5. Communal living & shared wealth? Most would say this was a failed system. But I would add, I believe the REAL Church would do a much better job of welfare than the Government!

6. People who are dishonest about tithing/giving dropping over dead? You're on your own here.

7. People being healed by our shadows? I am afraid that I am not that close to God. (But seeking more daily & willing.)

8. Preachers being supernaturally teleported to new locations after performing baptismal services? How about walking on water? It has happened.

9.Continuing Paul's handkerchief healing ministry? I have heard of people being healed or delivered through a "prayed over hanky" being placed under their pillow.

ebag pastor you add:
The question is "how can we be so selective and so dogmatic in defending tongues, when we so easily dismiss these other supernatural events in the same book of Acts as not 'normative?' Isn't this really a huge theological double standard?"

I answer, with scripture, These signs will follow those who believe.
And God promises to confirm His Word with signs and wonders.

Are we allowing enough room for God to show up in our services?

Are we trying to win people through our intellect and communication skills?

Are we truly people who are anointed with HS Power?

Gone to Pray!

Timothy Rice said...

george p. wood asked:

"Do we in the AG believe that a person who evinces the character and behavior described in Article 7 has not been Spirit-baptized if he has not spoken in tongues, according to Article 8?"

my response is two-fold:

first, why has this become such a (nearly) obsessive question? to me it is almost as futile as asking, "is (a particular person) saved?" can we REALLY know since only God is the ultimate judge in these matters? should it change the way we preach the gospel (which ought to include the necessity of salvation AND spirit-baptism?

second, a more straightforward answer to the question itself, i cannot say if, IN FACT, they are spirit-baptized, because they have not manifested the initial physical evidence of speaking in other tongues. as i attempted to say in an earlier post...this is what #8 means to me: MERELY (and i use that word cautiously, lest it be misunderstood) a reliable means to attest to spirit-baptism.

Will said...

Anonymous 1:38, this discussion, at least from me has nothing to do with other denominations or fellowships it has everything to do with the original post by Paul Grabill. BTW, yes we all receive the Spirit at conversion but the Baptism is a separate experience and that is the experience we are discussing. And yes it's important and yes I think everyone should experience the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Italian Servant, concerning GPW's position, Are those enough to evidence Spirit Baptism when countless others, at least according to our FT's aren't baptized in the Holy Spirit but exhibit these characteristics or Fruit? What do you think?

Anonymous said...

Yes, Pentecostalism has historically held that if one has not spoken tongues one has not been baptized with the Holy Spirit - as in no tongues, no baptism. And that if one does not speak in tongues then one cannot be licensed to preach with the AG - there are lots of other avenues for folks to minister but the line is drawn at the licensing level and up - no tongues no license to preach. Sure, one can say they are seeking and the district officials may allow some wiggle room and monitor things, but if there is no tongues....

Anonymous said...

Hey Tom.......I've heard of UFO's too but that doesn't make them real!

Anonymous said...

If we confess with our mouth and believe in our heart and speak in tongues.....oh wait, that's not the way it goes.

Corinthian said...

The fruit of the Spirit are not evidence of the Baptism.

You can have extremely immature Christians who are baptized in the Scriptures.

Luke and Paul have complementary but different pneumetologies.

Luke's is for empowerement...Paul's is for sanctification.

They clearly write with different theological intentions.

So i would not advocate fruit as evidence of anything but the sanctifying "indwelling" of the HS.

Luke, conversely, uses filled or baptized to indicate an empowerment for witness. BTW...this may be a one time event...but even in Acts...it happened more than once to the same people.

Italian Servant said...

Will,
may you repeat your question? I didn't understand (it's my bad english? I don't know).

However, if I understood the general nature of the question, I can so answer:
>I don't believe that Baptism in the Holy Spirit has anything in common with fruit of the Spirit (see corinthians' experience).
>I don't believe that baptism in the Holy Spirit has anything in common with sanctification.
>I don't believe that baptism in the Holy Spirit has anything in common with christian character.

I think sanctification, fruit of the Spirit and christian character are for every good believer and, generally speaking, often are stronger in not-pentecostal churches.

I understand that my view is not the common classical pentecostal idea,but there are absolutly no biblical verses to defend these old aspects of the doctrine. My accent is baptism in the Holy Spirit to preach the Gospel, to do miracles, and generally speaking, to have POWER FOR THE OTHERS.

If you are speaking of the fruit in terms of power for the others, it's another story (but GPW speaks of Galatians 5... and so...)

If you want to ask me if it's more important

Fruit of the Spirit/sanctification/power-for-me

OR

Baptism in the Holy Spirit/power-for-the-others I say: they are on the same level.

For Lane: you that attack the 3-verses theory of IPE, why don't attack the 0-verses theory of a baptism in the Holy Spirit linked to sanctification?

For Will: did I answer to your question?

Will said...

You answered it correctly. That was exactly what I was asking.

Italian Servant said...

"Teacher,
Corinthian copied from Menzies!".

American Brothers, read Menzies' books! (specially: http://www.amazon.com/Spirit-Power-Robert-P-Menzies/dp/0310235073)

He explains almost everything we are speaking about with very strong arguments (I don't agree only about spiritual gifts).

(I agree with you Corinthian... I'm only doubtful about your ideas of "a lot of empowerments").

Paul F. said...

Will wrote "It to me says that I know better than people who are, at least to me, smarter than me. That is rebellious, prideful, and ignorant."

How does this not apply to almost every great thinker we have record of prior to the formation of our FTs? The unavoidable implication of #8 is that every great mind prior to early 20th century (and plenty since #8's formulation) is wrong and that we AG people "know better than people who are, at least to me, smarter than me."

Lane, I wish you hadn't decided to quit the discussion. I rather enjoyed the exchange (probably because I agree with you!).

I've got three questions that I'm curious about:

1) Is no one else bothered by the fact that we are in such an extreme minority on this? Does that not at least give you reason to wonder if we're wrong?

2) If the AG actually changed #8 to include something like 'but speaking in tongues may be a delayed experience for some', what would actually change? How would a change of that sort matter to this fellowship? Would things 'on the ground' be any different?

3) Baptism in the Holy Spirit is available to everyone, right? So, in principle, according to #8, everyone should be able to speak in tongues. If they don't then we can't know they are baptized. Well, what do we say about the mute person that can't speak at all? What about the persecuted Christian that has his tongue cut out prior to being baptized? Are we willing to say that, for these people, we can never know if they are baptized, even if they live a life that exemplifies all the fruits of the spirit?

Cheers,

Italian Servant said...

Paul F.,
1) The truth is, generally speaking, an hard thing like the message of Christ ("it is hard to hear"). This is why classic pentecostal believers are the minority (but we grow very fast, more than any other movement on the earth ---> we have something special).

2) I don't believe "speaking in tongues may be a delayed experience for some", but maybe this change could be useful to stop the stressing "now! now!" way of preaching theat is used by a lot of pentecostal preachers... baptism in the Holy Spirit needs a calm, waiting aptitude.

3) I didn't hear directly but I know an italian pastor that says that in Sicily there is a mute that speaks in other tongues. He speaks ONLY when he speakes in other tongues. Yes, it's a miracle. We believe in the miracles. God controls the mouth and the events. Again, Paul, yours is human relativism against supernatural truth.

With love, Paul, I want really to say: I understand your issues and your good heart, but this is not the right way. Repent yourself, you are a good minister, you are doing good things with this blog, but relativism is dangerous for us and specially for our sons (the next generation): it is the door to lose everything from sanctification to power.

Danny "dj" Morales said...

Italian Servant:

Sorry for my late response. By saying the Lord's Baptism is a covenant act, I am actually elevating it up there with the God's promise not to flood the earth, Circumcision, the Mt Sinai experience, Salvation (the prerequisite), and Baptism in Water.

Can anyone question the physical evidence of God's rainbow? What about Circumcision (I'd hate to personally confirm this ;-)? What about the Sabbath and when it occurs? Can a person point to their salvation experience? Is a person's Baptism in Water a grey area as to when it happened (maybe with Alzheimer’s)? I believe the same truth applies to the Lord's Baptism and its covenantal sign - the unknown tongue.

The first believers were Jews and Covenant people. They understood covenants and covenantal signs. I am just a student outside their culture beginning to learn what has been taught and mulled over on covenants for three millennia. Who knows what the Lord opened their eyes to in Scripture after His ascension. No one can say they have that all figured out and know what dots He connected.

Obviously, the Lord talked a lot about it "do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about." The Lord's Baptism is the reason why non-Jews were allowed fellowship! Truly we do not give it enough credit.

The fact that it was a gift of the Father points to it being a covenant. It also points to it being a separate and distinct event that is not earned. It's a gift! Did circumcision translate to personal holiness? Does Baptism in Water translate to Fruits of the Spirit?

For this reason, some believers who have been baptized by the Lord will say "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?". Why? Because spiritual gifts and operations are not earned and do not translate to personal holiness.

The Lord's Baptism is a gift that empowers and edifies the individual to witness and to speak the mind of God into their individual lives. That's power!

Now, can others be blessed to evangelize and perform miracles? Sure, a person gifted in evangelism is operating in a very real and supernatural office not held by every believer. A person gifted in works of miracles is likewise operating in a very real and supernatural gifting not appointed to every believer.

Hope this helps...

Italian Servant said...

About (2) I add that I believe that BHS at all could be a delayed experience for some. The 120 disciples waited and so I think we could wait... also for YEARS (this is my experience).

Another classical pentecostal error is to think "you have a problem if you don't speak in other tongues exactly NOW!".

BHS wa a delayed experience after the promise for the 3000 (put together Acts 2.38 and Acts 4.31).

Tom &amp; Jan Bougher said...

Anonymous #1 said
“Hey Tom.......I've heard of UFO's too but that doesn't make them real!”
Responding to #1: I used “heard of” in my response to Pastor Ebag because I don’t have at my finger tips the books to refer you to. Until people have a Supernatural Encounter with God, it may be very difficult to believe in one. Even if I find you the book – I realize, that doesn’t mean you will believe. Salvation is by faith, … for that matter receiving anything from God takes faith. Faith to believe that God can.
Anonymous #2 said
“If we confess with our mouth and believe in our heart and speak in tongues.....oh wait, that's not the way it goes.”
My response to #2– I am not saying (& I have not read anyone else saying this) that speaking in tongues gets you into heaven. No more than water baptism does – the thief on the cross did neither. (I’ve know people to speak in tongues on Sunday and act like the devil on Monday.)
But there is more to this life than Salvation. That is merely the beginning. We must teach people about dying daily – the process of becoming Christ-like is a life long journey. Discipleship is a step by step process. And being filled with the Spirit should not be a single event!
But being filled with the Spirit should be seen as an advantage for the believer. If it was not something we need, why did Jesus tell the disciples and others to wait in Jerusalem for it? Look at the effect the Holy Spirit had on Peter.
I will also confess, that if we, who have been filled with the Holy Spirit would be more effective in our witnessing and had more signs following us, this discussion would not be happening.
Gone again to pray.

Anonymous said...

ok Tom.......then I have faith that there are UFO's:) And I'm glad to know that everything I read in a book will be true and definitive and one that I can base my doctrine upon.

George P. Wood said...

Corinthian:

Luke and Paul may have competing pneumatologies, but does the AG? Quoth Article 7:

"With the baptism in the Holy Spirit come such experiences as: an overflowing fullness of the Spirit, John 7:37-39, Acts 4:8;
a deepened reverence for God, Acts 2:43, Hebrews 12:28; an intensified consecration to God and dedication to His work, Acts 2:42; and a more active love for Christ, for His Word and for the lost, Mark 16:20."

To me, it seems that Article 7 lumps empowerment and sanctification together, at least to some degree.

What do you think?

Italian Servant responding to Danny dj morales said...

Danny dj morales,
I'm not sure I understood your answer. Covenant is a term that surely can be used in a lot of ways and maybe I admit I was wrong... we can use it for BHS.

I want to stress on the fact that it is not _only_ a sign (like rainbow or circumcision and, partially, baptism in the water - nothing of Spiritual happens in these examples).

The tongues are sign of a real power, totally new (power for the others).

"The BHS is the reason why not-Jews were allowed fellowship". I say no.

Paul speaks a lot about the arrive of the not-jews in the family of God and he speaks of the _Spirit_ as a covenant sign, but he DOES NOT speak often of the BHS!

I have the Spirit also _before_ the BHS!

But, when I see the Paul and Lane's dangerous position, I say... Danny dj morales, I agree almost totally with you.

dean said...

George,

Sorry it has taken a while to reply and many others have contributed since your post addressed to me. Here is perhaps some clarification and further expression.

Heresy is defined as, "an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards." I believe you would consider the beliefs that I cited as examples of heresy. Does that make me feel all warm and fuzzy calling some profound influencers and great thinkers heretics....No. However, their beliefs were not consistent with the teaching of Scripture and unfortunately on some points these great men were in fact heretical in their beliefs. That being said, some might find some of what I believe heretical.

My comments were intended to say that there is no doubt that the Trinity is a correct doctrine. It is an example of what i call a developed doctrine. By taking various truth statements of Scripture and putting them together, it is reasonable to see a theological concept developed aka, a doctrine. Contrived doctrines are those which have been shaded by a personal individual reading. Calvinism vs. Arminianism would be an example. Both sides of the debate have taken a particular reading of the truth of Scripture and applied their personal shading. And likely, no one will no the answer to who is "right" this side of heaven. I know this may sound like semantics, but this is why I see a difference in what should be considered doctrine(developmental truth) verses beliefs (contrived/interpretive truth claims).

We absolutely must consider reason when interpreting the Bible. However, as you alluded to, do we allow false tradition or unquestioned tradition influence the truth claims of Scripture? You cite various areas of hermenuetics that are valid points. But I respectfully disagree with some. I think that in applying the textual critical method, historical criticism, and the like, Pentacostal beliefs must be re-examined. This is the same belief that many others involved in the poll are expressing. They are all saying that there must be a better way to express the beliefs of the fellowship and some of the original ideas may even need to be scrapped so that the central issues, the essential doctrines and beliefs can be the banner that leads the Assemblies.

George P. Wood said...

Italian Servant:

You wrote this to Lane: "you that attack the 3-verses theory of IPE, why don't attack the 0-verses theory of a baptism in the Holy Spirit linked to sanctification?"

While it may be true that the terminology of Spirit-baptism doesn't appear side by side with sanctification terminology, I find it conceptually odd that you would argue that someone can be "immersed" (i.e., "baptized") in the Holy Spirit or "filled" with the Holy Spirit and not be sanctified. But that, I fear, is the end result of pitting Paul's pneumatology against Luke's. We limit baptism/filling language to empowerment, separate it from sanctification, and then have the conceptual puzzle of saying that a person can be immersed in or full of the Holy Spirit without in fact producing the fruit of the Spirit. If you have the Spirit's power without the Spirit's love, I have no idea how you can claim to be "immersed" in or "filled" with the Holy Spirit.

George

Italian Servant responding to George said...

George,

baptism in the Holy Spirit = an overflowing fullness of the Spirit

but then read this:

With a SUPERNATURAL HEALING come such experiences as:
a deepened reverence for God; an intensified consecration to God and dedication to His work; and a more active love for Christ, for His Word and for the lost."

Every gift from God creates these results, with some exceptions.

Another example:
generally speaking, reading the Word creates love inside us, but this is not a rule! A rule is that faith assures salvation, reading the bible doesn't assure salvation.

So sanctification is _often_ linked to empowerment... and the Article 7 is right, but this is not the focal point. This is not the rule.

This is why tongues is the STRONG evidence (the rule) while the fruit of the Spirit isn't.

However, I'm Assemblee di Dio in Italia but Menzies (read him) is AoG in America and he teaches clearly these things ;-)

Tom &amp; Jan Bougher said...

Anonymous -
(The UFO believing one.)
Mary did not have all the evidence either. She had never heard of the Holy Spirit coming upon a young girl and bringing about a miraculous birth. Yet, she trusted God and believed.
(Her UFO was an angel.)

Anonymous said...

Tom....you need to learn to take some things as tongue in cheek. Too many on here take themselves wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too seriously

George P. Wood said...

Dean:

You define heresy as "an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards." I'm okay with this definition as long as it's not pressed too far, but I fear you do exactly that.

Not every doctrinal error or misinterpretation of Scripture is a heresy. There are perfectly orthodox evangelical Presbyterians who baptize infants. I would not call them heretics for this practice, although obviously I believe the practice is wrong. Also, while I think transubstantiation and consubstantiation are errors of interpretation, I would not want to call Martin Luther a heretic. If you're comfortable doing so, then you're a far braver man than I am.

Let me illustrate the weakness of your definition. In the AG, there are dispensational premillennialists as well as classical premillennialists. These doctrinal positions are mutually exclusive. If one is true, the other is false. Let's say dispensational premillennialism is false. Does that mean, on your definition of heresy, that it is a heresy? If so, then shouldn't the classical premillennialists in the AG excommunicate the heretics from our midst? If not, then are you saying that you're willing to live with a little heresy in the AG?

Here's my point, which admittedly driving home with an absurd example: Heresy is not merely error; it is egregious, fellowship splitting error. Denial of the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. These are heresies. Dispensational premillennialism, infant baptism, even consubstantiation: these are errors. I can live with Christians who believe them. A person who is a heretic, however, is not even a Christian to begin with. Heresy, in other words, is different than mere error by an order of magnitude. It deals with fundamental doctrine. To accuse someone of heresy, one must bear a heavy burden of proof.

George

Italian Servant said...

George,
I understand your doubts, but this is the real focus of the historical problem. Evangelical generally have fruits in the Holy Spirit, we have generally empowerment.

I understand the difficulties, but if we challenge this difficulty, we solve every other problem.

Maybe we have to say that we have a biblical paradox, but it is clearly a paradox in the Bible, not mine:

examples given:
>Corinthians have the gifts but not the fruits;
>Saul and Samson experience of empowerment without sanctification (think specially to the last Samson's experiences).

But we have something more: Moody and then a lot of pentecostal preachers say that in the Bible the Spirit is IN the believer when you read about new birth (you can find the examples), is ON the believer when you read about the BHS.

Jesus at the end of Luke (AFTER he blowed the Spirit in John 20.22)promised for the disciples that the BHS is power and Spirit AROUND YOU. And this is why it's all for the OTHERS.

Baptizing is something that happens AROUND you.

So something is inside (Billy Graham and a lot of other evangelical believers have it) and something is outside.

I think this separation is clear in the Bible and it solves everything also in terms of experience. I have only some problems with Vineyardites that do miracles, but I know that a lot of Vineyardites speak other tongues, so...

But if you (and your father - because I see the same in his words) want to say that pentecostal believers stress to much on BHS and tongues and not on sanctification but they are on the same level, I totally agree.

Corinthian said...

George,

I think you response is another indicator to me that our FT's need to be reworked by our best theological minds. Much of the support is written too systematically. I think everyone could probably agree with that, eh?

Whatever you are advocating for...would you rather see biblical theology or systematic? I see value in systematizing...but...context is too important for me.

complementary (adjective of "complete") - forming a complement : "backyard satellite dishes and the complementary electronic components."

compete - strive to gain or win something by defeating or establishing superiority over others who are trying to do the same : "universities are competing for applicants."

-- Webster

I think the definitions above dispell any need to pit Paul vs. Luke. I see them forming the broader picture of God's purpose for the Spirit.

Interpreting Luke through a Pauline grid is fine...but only after he is evaluated in verse, the book, the corpus of writing penned by the same author....then you compare to other books.

George, i agree with you....Article 7 does lump them together. Although, officially, article 9 is titled "Sanctification." Odd...and sloppy.

Paul F. said...

Italian Servant,

I'm not sure how you got the idea that I'm a relativist because that couldn't be further from the truth. (I'm teaching an intro to ethics course at the University of Oklahoma and will spend the first 2 class periods arguing that relativism is false.) Being open to the idea that we might have it wrong doesn't commit me to relativism, that's just being intellectually humble. If I was a relativist I'd be saying something like, 'The AG believes in the truth of #8. Other people don't, but that's okay because everyone is right.' The AG is either right about #8 or it isn't. I'm just saying we should at least be willing to entertain the possibility that it isn't.

And what exactly is it that I need to repent of?

Italian Servant to George (again) said...

Acts 6: Stephan was: full of SPIRIT, full of WISDOM, full of FAITH, full of GRACE, full of POWER. He is repeating always the same thing or at least WISDOM<>SPIRIT, SPIRIT<>FAITH, POWER<>GRACE?

and why when do we choose someone for a role, we say: tongues (= SPIRIT and POWER) and not WISDOM, FAITH, GRACE?

This is our problem. For us BHS in the Holy Spirit is everything but it's only a very important aspect.

So I totally agree with danny dj morales:

"I believe it's important to separate out the Gifts and Fruit from the Lord's Baptism in doctrinal statements. Why?

1. It gives them their proper emphasis (they shall know us by their fruit - sounds like a distinctive and fundamental to me). Let's advertise that we're all about miracles, faith, and healing (another distinctive).

2. It helps to avoid confusion and misallocation of attributes (eg. the unknown tongue is different in purpose and function than the gift of different kinds of tongues; the Lord's Baptism does not translate to the Fruit)."

This is the real issue!!!! and the sentence of danny dj morales put together Lane, me, you, danny dj morales, older generations, new generation, Paul... God...

Will said...

Paul F., how can the AG be wrong about # 8? It is the only logical and biblical conclusion based on the biblical evidence we have.

Italian Servant said...

Paul f,

I say only: if yours is not relativism, two possibilities:
1) tell me what is the true answer instead of IPE. Not a better, not a "softer for every AG minister". Tell me the truth according to you. Or you can say

2) I don't know... well, hear other pastors in this blog. Not attack, hear at all.

I think (but you know yourself) that your kind of solution (like Lane) about BHS and IPE is an easy, quick, political, human solution for godly, spiritual things. Repent yourself from the fact that you are totally committed to this idea. I really love you and I'm ready to change my impression about you. But about this direction, I really think you are spoiling the work of God among all the pastors that read you.

Sorry but I need to let you... we will speak again tomorrow.

Calculate what time is now in Italy... please...

Paul F. said...

Dean,

George pointed out a few problems with your definition of heresy, and I figured I might as well pile on! J/K. Actually, I think you've more appropriately defined heterodoxy as opposed to heresy.

Heresy has traditionally been defined as wrong doctrine that directly leads one away from the God. So, believing that Christ was not really man but only appeared to be man is heresy. Believing that Luke 6:38 has anything to do with finances is heterodoxy.

To call not believing the AG's IPE doctrine heresy commits you to also thinking not believing it leads directly to one's separation from God. That seems really strong and probably not what you intended. However, distinguishing heterodox from heresy doesn't mean that having wrong beliefs doesn't matter. Believing wrong things about God can hamper one's relationship with him even if they don't completely sever it.

Paul F. said...

Italian Servant,

I'm not sure we're working with the same definition of relativism. Philosophically speaking (where relativism got started), relativism means something like the denial of objective truth concerning a certain area. For us, that area would be the denial of objective theological truths. Relativism in this area would say that whatever you think is true is true for you and whatever I think is true is true for me (it's relative). Because there is no objective truth concerning theology, there is no way to settle the issue and we just have to agree to disagree.

That is how I define relativism (and is what I vehemently deny). How would you define it?

Concerning your two questions:

1) I'm not saying that the AG is wrong concerning IPE. All I'm saying is that it seems arrogant to act as if there is no possibility that the AG is wrong. One of my professors at Southwestern Assemblies of God University, Dr. Wykoff, exemplified perfectly the type of attitude I think we should have. Anytime someone asked him a question about his theology he would begin his answer with "Well, this is where I'm at right now" and then go ahead and give his answer. That beginning caveat signified that he was willing to admit that he isn't infallible concerning his theology and at some point he may need to make adjustments. I think the AG as a whole would be well served to have a similar attitude.

2) Can you provide me with an example of me attacking someone on this blog? I've done all I can to write in a tone that is conducive to further dialogue.

Finally, I'm not sure if you realize it or not, but by telling me I need to repent of my ideas you're telling me that my belief the AG may have things wrong is a sin. If that's right then the majority of Christians now and throughout history have lived in sin because they didn't believe IPE. Doesn't it seem a bit of a stretch to say, "Oh man, if Billy Graham only believed in the IPE doctrine he wouldn't have lived a life of sin and could've really been used by God"? Perhaps I've misunderstood you. If so, please let me know.

Paul F. said...

Will, see 1) in my above comment to Italian Servant (I figure why repeat myself!).

Also, please answer the following question for me. Do you not find it at least a little troubling that such a small, recent, group of theologians have drawn the conclusions they have concerning #8?

You say that #8 is the only logical and biblical conclusion we can draw, but there are scores of other non-AGers that probably say the same thing about their different interpretation. Might it be that we're all overestimating our case and need to approach the issue a bit more humbly? Again (just to appease Italian Servant), I'm not saying there is no truth to the matter I'm just saying we should act less certain about things that so many Christians disagree about.

Finally (because it's a weaker point), if you surveyed AG and non-AG pastors and asked them, "Of the NT books which is closest to a theological treatise?", I'm pretty sure the overwhelming response would be Romans (Gospels & Acts are something like history works and the letters were written to specific situations in specific churches. Romans seems to be the only book that was intended for a wide audience and was written mainly to convey theological truths.) If the above is right, then isn't it odd that Paul doesn't explain IPE in Romans? He goes through the whole "Romans Road" (among many other very important things), but stops before IPE? Really?

Italian Servant to Paul F. said...

Paul,
0) You are speaking of relativistic ONTOLOGY. I think you are very near (and often IN) relativistic GNOSEOLOGY and/or EPISTEMOLOGY. Also because I didn't hear your "adjustment". A "probably" isn't an adjustment, is a pragmatical solution.

1) IPE is just like all the other doctrines. You can't live with "possibilities". I'm ready to do adjustment on my theology and my movement if we need, but "probably" is not at all an adjustment.

2) I think you are attacking (in the meaning of going against, not in the meaning of hurting) the old approach about IPE. This is not the good way.

3) Finally (I've to go to bed), I think we daily sin and daily repent ourself. It's nothing exceptional. Is "AG may have things wrong" a sin? Not at all. I say it for you: AG has things wrong. It's your pragmatical solution that is a sin (Billy Graham didn't go AGAINST IPE, he was not in AG). When I say "yours", I say lane's and yours. I'm not able in this moment to separate your ideas.

However even if my language I think is correct, I can be easly misunderstood, so I'll speak with other terms the next time. Please, forgive me if I said too much. But be careful.

P.S. Did you study Popper's epistemology on science? well, I think we need an epistemology/hermeneutics like Popper and absolutly NOT an epistemology/hermeneutics like positivism or Kuhn. And so maybe you are the only one that understood my position between Relativism and Dogmaticism ;-)

Italian Servant that must sleep! said...

Paul,
I sincerely think IPE is more evident that trinity. I have no time, but are you able to find all the 16 FTs (except IPE) from Romans? Maybe it's possible, but I don't think (start with: "The Bible is our only... etc. etc.").

However, I can see the things in the opposite way. In his last days before ascension Jesus stressed about Baptism in the Holy Spirit and evangelism. Nothing about sanctification. Why? There is the Romans Letter.

The Accent on BHS and secondarly IPE is given by the last chapter of Luke and the first chapters of Acts. The accent is strong. AG are not overemphatizing IPE.

dean said...

george and paul f.-

It wasn't my intention to say IPE is heresy. There is a line of reasoning that exists within the Bible which could potentially support such a doctrine...I just don't agree with it. I think tongues was a tool of spreading the Gospel and expanding the Kingdom and not necessarily an absolute. As to heterodoxy vs. heresy; here is the dictionary definition of heterodoxy, "contrary to or different from an acknowledged standard, a traditional form, or an established religion". This implies a difference of opinion. A heresy is not a difference of opinion, it is contrary to Biblical truth. Palagius was labeled a heretic even though some may not consider his stance on original sin that "egregious". Since there is no biblical evidence in any way to support baptizing infants it should be considered a heresy. That doesn't mean that Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and others were heretics. It means that they held on to some heretical teachings from the Catholic church. So, your definition of heretic leaves me wanting. Would you consider the assumption of Mary a heresy or simply an error? By your terms, i assume you would view it as an error because it doesn't remove someone from the belief in God...it simply elevates Mary to the status of god.

George, your example of excommunication for those with differing eschatalogical views strikes exactly at the heart of what so many have expressed. If the A/G is sold out committed to IPE as an absolute then all who don't follow should be "excommunicated" and that is a line that has been drawn. To not believe in the IPE stance is from an A/G view a heresy which requires a disassocaition of fellowship. If the FT's are equally held absolutes then anyone not accepting them is guilty of heresy in the eyes of the A/G and the result should be the same. You can't have both sides, either you believe it is essential or it is not. Some people are still wrestling with the IPE doctrine, but eventually they will come down on one side or the other. I read one post that mentioned a split and I see that is where the A/G is headed because this issue has become so devisive. I echo what I believe you both have expressed and that is the need for a reexamination of the FT's and the IPE doctrine. The question then becomes, is there a willingness to potentially scrap 100 years of dogma for the sake of even greater gains if that is what God directs? What if when the hard questions are asked, the needed change is as profound as the Reformation and the subsequent moves of reform?

Paul F. said...

Dean, I'm glad to here that you don't think not believing IPE makes one a heretic! I am concerned when I read, "Since there is no biblical evidence in any way to support baptizing infants it should be considered a heresy."

There not being biblical evidence for for a position isn't the same as being "contrary to or different from an acknowledged standard, a traditional form, or an established religion." Is there biblical evidence for having someone repeat a "sinner's prayer" as the means of salvation? No, but that doesn't make it heretical (just perhaps a bit misguided, but that's probably for a different thread!).

Also, isn't it odd that, given the definition of heresy you provide, that the Catholic church has a lot of heretical teachings? I would've thought the Catholic church was the "acknowledged standard, [the] traditional form, [and] [the] established religion." We're the ones that came along and went against the established religion!

Concerning the assumption of Mary, I don't agree with it but also don't think it's heretical. I find it odd that you equate Mary's being assumed with elevating her "to the status of god." Did the writer of Genesis elevate Enoch to the status of god? How is the method in which one leaves the earth relevant to that person's "status"?

Paul F. said...

Italian Servant,

I'm going to have to disagree with you. Yes, there is a version of relativism that deals with ontology, but that's not what my post was about. I adhere to the correspondence theory of truth. That is, a proposition is true if and only if there is a correspondence between the proposition under consideration and the way the world really is. That is not relativism of any variety and is the bedrock of my epistemology (of course my epistemology need not depend on the correspondence theory, but if not I would have a different bedrock).

Given that I believe a true theological statement corresponds with truths about the world it only makes sense that I examine rigorously my theological beliefs. If it is found that one of those beliefs does not correspond to the way the world is (i.e. what God intended for us to know about him and his relationship with us), then it is false and should be rejected. My willingness to examine carefully IPE is grounded in the fact that I do not want to hold any false beliefs. Admitting even the possibility of there being false beliefs go directly against epistemological relativism.

I think that the only (sane) position between relativism and dogmaticism is fallibilism. Fallibilism holds that we can know things about the world and can base our system of belief on those things. However, there is always the chance that we are wrong about some of those beliefs. The chance of our being wrong doesn't lead to skepticism because we are still able to adapt our system of belief as needed when a wrong belief is ferreted out, and then carry on with life.

I'm still not sure what you mean by my "pragmatical solution". Do you think that because I am an AG minister and think we could be wrong concerning IPE that I am in sin? (By the way, it helps to only use the quotation marks when you are quoting someone and not for emphasis.)

dean said...

paul f.-

The Catholic church has many heretical teachings...yet, you don't consider the assumption of Mary and other elements of their "Mary-olotry" as being heretical?? I'm missing something. I believe one has to consider the Catholic church as the original source of heretical vs. orthodox judgment and their attempts, while some would argue as misguided in many cases, were to establish a tradition that would perpetuate Christianity and preserve what various leaders believed to be biblical truth. Change has come as new thinkers have emerged and placed a scriptural corrective on errors that are not validated by Scripture. As it regards to infant baptism, this was a contrivance of the Catholic church in conjunction with their union to the state to generate tax revenue by making it necessary to have your children baptized. Baptize babies-take a census of the family-know how much money they should be paying. Nowhere does Scripture affirm infant baptism. It only affirms adult baptism and any argument from silence opens up a Pandora's Box of speculatory doctrines. The Bible is our gauge in these matters, not the Catholic church, the Baptist church, the Lutheran church, etc.

Really, we are playing a word game here. Call it heresy, error, whatever you would like but a failure to have a high value for the absolute truth of Scripture is a dangerous thing, in my view.

Brian Roden said...

Dean said:
"Nowhere does Scripture affirm infant baptism. It only affirms adult baptism "

I'm sure you meant to say "baptism after being able to make a volitional choice to follow Christ", or do you really mean that a believing 8-year-old shouldn't be baptised?

George P. Wood said...

Dean:

It feels like we're beating a dead horse here, but one can have a high value for Scripture and still be wrong about its interpretation. Sometimes, people with a high view of Scripture hold heretical views; for example, Jehovah's Witnesses on the person of Jesus Christ. Other times, it is possible to hold a high view of Scripture but to misinterpret it in a way that falls short of heresy. I would say that that is the case with advocates of infant baptism. Sometimes, although much more rarely, it's possible to have a low view of Scripture but to be orthodox (Karl Barth can tend in that direction). At any rate, contrary to what you wrote, it is important to define the difference between heresy and error. Otherwise, we might be mistakenly lumping our evangelical Presbyterian friends together with Jehovah's witnesses.

George

dean said...

brian-

I don't want to go down in flames on too many issues, so I recognize what you are saying. I agree that there are definitely variant ages of maturity and understanding and any attempt to make any sort of "rule" is warrantless. So, I conceed that there may be some 8 year olds out there capable of coming to a volitional choice about Christ. However, I personally have been wrestling with this lately in regards to my own experience. I was "saved" at 13 because "I needed to listen to my mommy and daddy and not burn in an awful place called hell when I died." I really had no understanding of what the commitment I was making entailed and it wasn't until 12 years later that I came into a discipleship/mentor relationship where I honestly understood and "recommitted" my life. I am really wrestling with whether or not my salvation date aligns more closely with the later date rather than the initial. Oh, boy...I really think this is another discussion!

dean said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

You are all missing the main point in this discussion...you can't be saved unless you speak in tongues, have been baptized in the name of Jesus only and your wife refuses to wear make-up or cut her hair.

Wait a minute...I sound like that guy at the GC business session from Louisiana...

dean said...

george-

I believe we need to "agree to disagree" on the defining of these terms and not invest too much time in labels since it is clear you will not see my point and I am not finding agreement with yours. I agree that there is a dilineation between cultic groups like Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc. and evangelical Presbetyrians. This difference occurs because they have compromised one of the essential truths that anyone who is truly Christian must ascribe to; the diety of Christ. But in my view and that of the historical labeling of "heresy", your infant baptizers fall into that catagory. (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli all had other Christians killed because they spoke out against infant baptism...these men were great men, but they were fallible men, capable of very poor judgments. [But to loosely quote Paul, Dean is a far greater sinner and much more fallible than these men.])

These are the very things that create enjoyable (while sometimes frustrating) debate, yet they are not "deal breakers" as one contributor noted. We can still have fellowship and serve towards a common purpose of expanding God's Kingdom.

As a side bar, does anyone know of a format where there is ongoing dialogue about the historical development of Pentacostalism? (Sorry I added this to your reply, George, but you had made a comment earlier that triggered the thought when you brought up historical criticism.) I have read the book by Hyatt "2000 years of Pentacostal History", but wondered if anyone else had other resources. Thanks.

dean said...
This post has been removed by the author.
dean said...

To clarify a point in my last post, I don't think evangelical Presbetyrians are cultists! They just have a heretical stance on infant baptism according to my understanding of the term....a thousand and one pardons to all offended Presbetyrians!

Danny "dj" Morales said...

Italian Servant:

I have to take issue with there not being anything spiritual associated with the covenantal signs I mentioned (the rainbow, Circumcision, and Baptism in Water).

Rainbows are God's multi-tongued, I mean multi-colored voice to the world. "Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth". God said whenever He sees it, He remembers. I take Him at His word. Thus, the rainbow is a physical covenantal sign that conveys a spiritual truth.

Jews would really take issue with the non-spirituality of Circumcision, because that is when a Jew is spiritually born (like reborn) into the assembly and given their name. For example, John the Baptist and Jesus were given their names upon their Circumcision (interestingly, Zechariah's mouth and tongue were loosened on this day). It being on the eighth day (the only time the Sabbath could be violated), also has spiritual significance to the Jew, because it represents the day after the seven physical days of creation. “Circumcision Day” is entirely a day of the Spirit. Thus, circumcision is a physical covenantal sign that conveys a spiritual truth.

I think you agree with me partially on Baptism in Water - "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God." It's a spiritual pledge. John's Baptism was a sign of repentance - a spiritual concept. We might as well get used to the idea that water is a significant spiritual sign because Jesus talked about it, told us to baptize in it, sits on a throne flowing with it, and waters His city with it (i.e. living H2O). Thus, water is a physical covenantal sign that conveys a spiritual truth.

These are physical signs that carry with them spiritual significance. Likewise, as I mentioned earlier, blood is the covenantal sign of Salvation. Why do you think Paul says "therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord". He meant what he said.

The unknown tongue, in my book anyways, is a physical covenantal sign that conveys a spiritual truth just as much as the others. Like God's rainbow, it is a multi-colored arc in your mouth both physically and linguistically. Like Circumcision, it is a sign in the flesh. Like water is to Baptism in Water, the unknown tongue is to the sign of the Lord's Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

But the real kicker for me as we say, was when I read this in Isaiah:

"'As for me, this is my covenant with them,' says the LORD. 'My Spirit, who is on you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouths of your children, or from the mouths of their descendants from this time on and forever,' says the LORD. Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the LORD rises upon you. See, darkness covers the earth and thick darkness is over the peoples, but the LORD rises upon you and his glory appears over you. Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your dawn. 'Lift up your eyes and look about you: All assemble and come to you; your sons come from afar, and your daughters are carried on the arm."

Kinda sounds like Acts Chapter 2 to me, complete with rainbows, I mean tongues of fire, I mean the glory of the Lord rising upon people's heads ;-). No wonder the Jews were amazed when the Gentiles were speaking in tongues! No wonder Paul's first question to the disciples in Ephesus was "did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?".

On a final note and as I said above, the Lord's Baptism should be placed apart from the Fruit of the Spirit (and the Gifts of the Spirit). Why? Well, for one thing, there are fundamental differences between gifts and fruits. Like my parents used to say, "Danny, money doesn't grow on trees you know." Neither do gifts.

Blessings

Lane Douglas said...

I took the night off (from the blog) as I had to teach last night and come back to UFO sightings and “Presbyterians are heretics.” This is some of the best reading I have done in a while.

My theology professor at GCTS, Dr. John Jefferson Davis, an incredibly prolific Presbyterian author and well-respected theologian, challenged me one day in class as a Pentecostal. Upon disagreeing with him on the biblical support for infant baptism, he took me to task. I’ll present his questions to the blog as he did to me in the class:

1. “Mr. Douglas, as I read Pentecostal theology, specifically Assembly of God theology, I notice that your statement of faith makes it explicitly clear that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, or as Luke defines it, being “filled with the Spirit,” is to be seen as an event subsequent to salvation. Would you agree?” (I answered “yes.”)

2. “Is there ever a case where a person is empowered by the Spirit before they are justified by Christ and considered, by the Church, ‘saved’?” (I answered “no.”)

3. “Explain to me then, Mr. Douglas, how it was that John the Baptist was ‘filled with the Spirit,’ at the point of birth if he was not ‘saved’ prior to that point?” (I answer weakly about the concept of a child possibly being allowed into heaven prior to reaching the age of accountability.)

4. “So our God is one who makes exceptions to His rules, especially in the case of infants?” (I don’t answer knowing that I was being asked if God was “unjust.”)

5. “Mr. Douglas, I’ll ask it more plainly. Was John the Baptist “saved” prior to being “filled” with the Spirit?” (Now I am dumbfounded. If I answer “no,” I have discredited my own belief system. If I answer “yes,” then I have given valid reason for an infant to be baptized.)

6. “It would seem to me, Mr. Douglas, that the Assembly of God position on Spirit-baptism is actually an incredibly powerful support point for infant baptism. So why aren't we in agreement on this? (I answer "I'll get back to you.")

So, I invite the readers of this blog to take him on. How would you have answered in a manner that is BOTH consistent with our theology AND simultaneously in rejection of the grounds of infant baptism?

Paul F. said...

Dean, you are missing something (caused by my unclarity). I meant the statement that the Catholic church has a lot of heretical teachings to be a statement of the absurd. Given that the Catholic church was the established religion for 1500 years, I thought it odd that they would also be heretical.

I actually don't believe any of the Catholic teachings are heretical. In error, yes perhaps, but not heretical. (But again, I use heretical to pick out those beliefs that lead one to separation from traditional Christianity and God. I also don't use 'heresy' concerning AG beliefs, 'heresy' concerning Presbyterian beliefs, or 'heresy' concerning Catholic beliefs. Instead I use 'heresy' to pick out beliefs that are antithetical to Lewis's mere Christianity.)

pastor darrell said...

Dean,

I believe that you are badly mistaken in how you understand heresy versus error. Heresy is defined up against the ecumenical creeds of the Church. Those creeds are not exhaustive treatments of biblical doctrine - there is much they do not deal with - but they set up boundary lines outside of which there is error regarding fundamental doctrines. As has been written by someone, the creeds are “the tried and proved faith of the collective body of God’s people.”

In descending order of gravity, error goes as follows.

Heresy - Teaching that contradicts the biblical doctrine of the church catholic as defined in the ecumenical creeds. With such people John says we are to have no dealings (II John 9-11)

Heterodoxy - Teaching that is at variance with the biblical doctrine of the church catholic as defined by the ecumenical creeds. This happens when something is asserted as doctrine that is either not mentioned in the creeds or goes contrary to the implications of the creeds. Much of the Roman Catholic church’s teaching regarding Mary fits this and nearly everything they say about the pope and magisterium.

False Teaching - While this can be used as a catch-all phrase for all error, it is better employed as a description of teaching that deals with issues beyond the ecumenical creeds but either has poor biblical foundations. This is where sectarian (denominational) distinctives and understandings start playing a role. At this level one orthodox sect can assert that another orthodox sect teaches false doctrine without asserting that they are outside the Church catholic.

Mistakes and Simple Error - These are possible in every denomination and come from our limited understanding. These can happen on any non-creedal item and should not cause a break of fellowship between sects. The question is what degree of flexibility can an individual denomination show in allowing what it considers error in those who are part of the fellowship. So if a CMA pastor teaches instantaneous total sanctification it will in no way restrict my fellowship with him as an A/G minister. However, I would vote against him being able to take credentials in the A/G unless he corrected (in my view) his error.

Using the word “heresy” loosely makes it a useless terms of disapproval or disagreement. It is not that. It is the assertion that someone or a particular sect is not, in fact, part of Christ’s mystical Church. The A/G is Christian, Protestant, Evangelical, and Pentecostal and we are the fruit of centuries not just something that started in 1906.

Paul F. said...

pastor darrell, well said! Thanks for taking the time to flesh out these distinctions.

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