FutureAG: Doug Clay Elected General Treasurer

Friday, January 18, 2008

Doug Clay Elected General Treasurer

"The Assemblies of God Executive Presbytery has elected the Rev. Doug Clay to the position of General Treasurer. Clay will take office April 1, fulfilling the unexpired term of the Rev. James K. Bridges, who resigned earlier this month after having served as general treasurer since 1993. " (AG Press Release, January 18, 2008)

Congratulations, Rev. Clay! And you can read Clay's blog here.

270 comments:

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Anonymous said...: Celebrating this election...not quite sure I think this is celebraton material. Electing the brother-in-law of the General Secretary seems a bit limited in scope for people who continually claim to be visionary trendsetters of the 21st Century. Nothng against Doug Clay, but you can't convince me there weren't others who are as quailified and who are not a relative of the General Secretary John Palmer.; January 18, 2008 6:23 PM
George P. Wood said...: Anonymous:

What exactly would you have said to Jesus when he chose two sets of brothers (Peter and Andrew, James and John) as the first of his 12 apostles? Or for that matter when Jesus' brother James was chosen to head the church at Jerusalem?

George; January 18, 2008 6:30 PM
George P. Wood said...: Oh, one more thing: Before General Council, Doug Clay garnered a lot of votes in the poll of potential General Superintendents. In fact, if memory serves, many touted him as precisely the kind of leader who could take the AG forward into the new millennium. And now you're critiquing him because of his brother-in-law? Seriously? Do you honestly think the EPs chose him because John Palmer is his brother? I don't. I think they chose him because of his track record as a leader. The fact that John Palmer was his brother-in-law was incidental.; January 18, 2008 6:37 PM
Danny "dj" Morales said...: Congrats to Brother Doug Clay! I was just remarking to an AGWM friend of mine two days ago how I wished he was an executive officer.

My prayers are with you Brother Clay. Take us to new heights in planting seeds for the Gospel and advancing this great fellowship!

Lane - I posted a response to Dr. Davis on the previous post. You can email me if you want.; January 18, 2008 6:48 PM
Anonymous said...: Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but some people are helped along by position in ministry, through the years by family and others are passed by, call it the buddy system, nepotism, or whatever. When a decision is made like this, whether right or wrong- we should not be surprised that people will expect interpret this present news in this matter.; January 18, 2008 6:52 PM
Anonymous said...: Fom what I know the Exec. leadership is made up of 6 individuals. When two of the 6 are out of the office meetings can be held and decisions made with a quorum of 4. If at meetings held with a quorum the two brothers-in-law are present they hold 50% of the vote. Is that a good thing?
Blood.......is thicker than water!; January 18, 2008 7:08 PM
Anonymous said...: To elect a brother-in-law of one of the Executive Presbyters is not only nepotism at its worst, but says to the church world at large that the Assemblies of God has a shortage of qualified ministers to fill vacant posts. One does wonder what the other Executives were thinking, or were they just trying to pacify the new General.
As to what Jesus did, I hardly think the Executives are Jesus, and in the present culture, nepotism is still frwoned upon. In fact it is discouraged.

Under G. Raymond Carlson I was considered for a position, but G. Raymond Carlson said no becouse I was related to one of the Executives. It was a good decision then, and it would be still today.; January 18, 2008 7:14 PM
Anonymous said...: George,

Let me jump in and share my HMO. People aren't questioning and being overly cynical. Just wise. I don't think the EPs elected Doug because of his brother-in-law, I think they should have gone a different route because of his brother-in-law. People are just naturally going to be cynical because they felt the election for the General Secretary was already manipulated/finessed by the family influence (Doug in the GPs stepping out of the nomination so John would have a clearer path). Then to compound the problem the GPs only put up two alternative names from 30,000 plus ministers. Nobody's debating whether Doug is a good guy. But just because something is lawful, doesn't mean it is expedient. My opinion... if he was the only one that was qualified, then he was a great choice. If he wasn't the only qualified man then it probably wasn't wisdom.
All this said, I am sure GOW and the EP's considered the potential criticism this would invite. Even though I don't agree, I commit to pray for our new executive leadership team.; January 18, 2008 7:17 PM
George P. Wood said...: My problem with the comments of the various Anonymi is that the first thing they have to say is not congratulations, or even what a great choice, but he's got a brother-in-law on the EPs. That's what strikes me as so cynical, especially when Clay received such plaudits on this blog prior to General Council.

Second, the blood is thicker than water doesn't hold water in my experience (sorr for the choice of words). I've got a dad, his son, and his son-in-law on my board, and the sharpest disagreements about policy usually are between the three of them. And anyway, since John and Doug are in-laws, the proverb doesn't exactly apply to them, does it?; January 18, 2008 7:24 PM
George P. Wood said...: Anonymous January 18, 2008 7:14 PM:

I'm not exactly sure how Jesus appointing two sets of brothers is nepotistic, given that neither set was related to Jesus. In the same way, Doug Clay's appointment as General Treasurer doesn't count as nepotistic because John Palmer didn't appoint him. For all I know, Palmer recused himself from voting precisely because of a perceived (though, in my opinion) not real conflict of interest.

So, let's retire the charge of nepotism. A group of individuals electing a person who is not their relative is not nepotistic under any received definition of the term.

GPW; January 18, 2008 7:34 PM
Rod Iberg said...: As someone having as much to lose from this election as anyone, I can assure you of the integrity of the process. Not only is this fellowship gaining a tremendous leader, but the purity and leading of the Holy Spirit was never more evident than it was through our General Superintendent and EPs. I was privileged to witness some of the prayer, discussions, humility and integrity that went into this decision, and at no time was nepotism a factor whatsoever. There will always be many who we think could qualify, but that is because we look through human eyes. Thankfully, God picks the one that fits His qualifications, and I for one am glad He doesn't leave those decisions up to us.; January 18, 2008 7:48 PM
George P. Wood said...: Anonymous January 18, 2008 7:14 PM:

The more I read your comment, the more incredulous I become. As I explained above, the EPs electing Doug Clay is not nepotistic.

But the more I consider the various motives you suggest for his election, the more bizarre your suggestions become.

You suggest, for example, that selecting Clay indicates to the world that the AG has a dearth of qualified ministers to fill the post. But are you seriously suggesting the alternative, that the person whom the EPs consider the most qualified candidate should be disqualified simply because he's related to John Palmer? Or, to come at this from another direction, are you seriously suggesting that the EPs willfully chose a second best candidate only because he's related to John Palmer? You're in a bind here. Either you must believe that Doug Clay is the best qualified candidate, and should therefore be passed over, or that he's the second best candidate, and should therefore be passed over.

Then you write, "One does wonder what the other Executives were thinking." Perhaps they were simply thinking that Doug Clay was the best qualified candidate. Or are you seriously suggesting that the EPs can be cowed into submission by John Palmer?

No, not John Palmer! You suggest that my dad cowed them into electing someone whom they didn't believe was the best qualified candidate. In your own words, they wanted to "pacify the new General." Honestly--and I know he's my dad--but that suggestion is just beneath contempt.

At the end of the day, these are the suggestions you have put forward for why the EPs chose Doug Clay: nepotism, groupthink, and cowardice.

Wouldn't it be charitable, especially on the day the guy gets appointed, simply to be happy for him rather than automatically reaching for some dark, insidious explanation that along the way insults the intelligence and honor of the people who appointed him?

Just asking.

GPW; January 18, 2008 7:48 PM
chilly said...: There's a lot of "anonymous" crap in here that simply needs to be flushed and forgotten.

Doug Clay is a man of character and virtue - the BEST MAN for the job. Thus, His election.

Never forget God's role in this vote & decision.; January 18, 2008 7:51 PM
Marvin J. Miller said...: Congratulations to Doug Clay. It appears that he is well qualified. Let's continue to pray for our leaders and for James Bridges as he leaves.

The fact is many of us have relatives who pastor. Many ministries have family teams. I've always thought it would be great to pastor with my brother, but he won't move to LA and I won't move to Indy.

I agree with the cynics, however, that this will appear to the "unchurched" as another example of nepotism. But I think they are used to seeing that at the local level, so it probably won't alter their opinion either way. I am going to presume that the Execs are well aware of the criticism they might take, but believed that such a move will help in propelling the AG forward.

I also believe that the entire executive group takes their decisions seriously and would not let "in-laws" hi-jack the direction of our movement. (remember, we elected the leaders who appointed him). At some point we must trust the leaders God put in place for this time. If we can't do that, then there's no reason to even continue critiquing the 16 FT's -

Marvin J. Miller
mjmiller@palmviewchristian.org; January 18, 2008 7:53 PM
Anonymous said...: George P... regarding Jesus,the brothers,etc...Doubtful Jesus and the brothers sat at cherry desks/tables in leather chairs setting policy and direction for Jesus ministry. By the time James was at the church in Jerusalem, Jesus had already paid with his life and had ascended to heaven. Therefore your point regarding this is invalid.
BTW The brothers did cause a problem with the seating assignments.
Concerning congrats here again Doug's not a bad guy, but IMHO it's a bad move.; January 18, 2008 7:55 PM
geoff said...: Doug.... Congrats! I don't know you, nor will I ever likely get the chance to sit down and pick your brain, but I am glad God has placed you in this leadership position! May God bless the actions that you take and grant you wisdom in your decicions!

As far as the criticism goes, we must trust the decisions that those we have elected make. I don't care whether he is the brother anyone in leadership or he is some random selection. God will bless the ministry either way. Quit second guessing everything and let these guys prove their way. If something goes wrong, then you can come out and criticize, but the guy hasnt done anything to warrant criticism! Guy him a break!!!; January 18, 2008 8:16 PM
Anonymous said...: Just wondering,

But if one had to be in the tribe of Levi, wouldn't every high priest be related to the prior one somehow...

And if so, how did they pick, since everybody was a relative...

Oh yeah, by the moving of God's Spirit after prayer and fasting...; January 18, 2008 8:21 PM
George P. Wood said...: Anonymous January 18, 2008 7:55 PM:

Your logic is impeccable. In fact, it inspires me to make this point: Since Jesus didn't post anonymous comments on FutureAG, your point about my point is also invalid.

GPW; January 18, 2008 8:37 PM
Anonymous said...: George P WOOD denouncing nepotism is hilarious. I'm sure that his comments have nothing to do with his father being the head of the A/G. This was NOT a wise move by the EP's. They will take a lot of flack for this and rightfully so. Hit me with your comments now George as I know you will be you of all people should not be waving the banner speaking against nepotism. It rings hollow; January 18, 2008 9:25 PM
Anonymous said...: This election just shows that nothing really has changed much in Springfield. Business as usual folks.; January 18, 2008 9:26 PM
Anonymous said...: Testy testy George....calm down now; January 18, 2008 9:35 PM
Lane Douglas said...: Anonymous...

If you think family members should not be allowed to serve on the GP, write up a resolution to hit the floor at the next GC and see how many people agree with you. This is one situation where a resolution could have effect since the GP would have to abide by the Constitution & Bylaws if they explicitly forbid family members from serving together.

Otherwise, you've made your point, so take it easy. Since this was an election (and not an appointment) ... I do not see the connection to nepotism.

Lane; January 18, 2008 9:56 PM
Anonymous said...: Bridges was rumored to be stepping down prior to GC. I'm sure that this was an arangement to have him retire later so that the EP could apoint someone to fill his spot rather than put it to a vote at GC. Looks that way for sure.; January 18, 2008 9:59 PM
Danny "dj" Morales said...: I hope to goodness that the same people who were commenting about the ill health of our districts are not muttering under their breaths now about his election.

His vision and strategic position is exactly what we need to motivate and inspire multiplied districts across the A/G.

Who knows? Maybe that was a conscious thought in the minds of those who voted for him. Who knows? Maybe the comments left on this blog about districts and the shining example set forth in Ohio played a role.

That's change and it should be recognized and applauded. Many of us put their names down for a wake-up call. Thank you EP for listening to God and your A/G family.; January 18, 2008 10:13 PM
A Good Choice said...: Admittedly, I am a bit questioning as to the process. My questioning does not make me any less sure Bro. Clay will do an outstanding job.

I think we should all examine the hoops that we jump to get to a position,and the maneuvers we perform to have those surrounding us be people we prefer.

I hope that the comments concerning Bro. Clay's quality of leadership on this blog tipped the scales of the decision--allowing them to feel at peace with bringing in a young and exemplary leader in spite of looking manipulated at first glance.

Whatever the case, ultimately he is a great choice. I know he will continue to excel through the anointing and hard work.; January 18, 2008 10:35 PM
Rich said...: I think a wise decision has been made in Doug Clay's selection. From all I have heard he is a top quality person who can help lead our fellowship to a healthy future.

However, I have a question.

Our district's recommended bylaws for churches, posted on our district website, states, "It is recommended that not more than one member of a family serve on the board of deacons. This is understood to include parental, sibling, and in-law relationships." Wisconsin Northern Michigan District Recommended Constitution and Bylaws for Class A Churches, Article VII, Section D, paragraph 5.

How might the wisdom in this for churches be different for General Council leadership?

Richard York; January 19, 2008 4:26 AM
Ben Rainey said...: It's convenient to paint GPW into a place where he can't respond because of who his father is. But it is his blog for crying out loud. He should say what he believes. I agree with him, and my father drives a bus.

But this decision doesn't put a spotlight on nepotism for me it has put a spotlight on bitterness. Maybe the change so many of us long for isn't a problem of leadership but of the poisonous root of bitterness.

Ephesians 4:31 - 32 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.; January 19, 2008 6:40 AM
You may be an AG redneck if... said...: Come on guys…all this talk about nepotism and everything…remember this is the AG we’re talking about and it is the Midwest!! I once had a youth pastor who was getting married and he went down to the Greene County Records office in Springfield, MO to pay for his marriage license and the clerk asked a series of questions including, “Now are you and your fiancé related?” His response, being from Alaska and all, “I didn’t know we had to be!” Well, they do make exceptions in Missouri if you’re not at least third cousins, by marriage…(but not many!).

It’s called endogamy –marrying to keep property, wealth, and power within the family. And it’s alive and well within the AG. I’d love to have a dollar bill for every happenstance conversation I’ve had with other AG people that went something like this, “Hello, I’m Brother Smith from Springfield, IL (and my Sunday School grew 22.6% last year—but that’s another blog).” My reply, “Well, are you related to Jim and Doris Smith over in Chicago, they are missionaries to the Congo?” Response, “Yes, they’re Sandy, my wife’s aunt and uncle.” My reply, “Well, my son just married their daughter’s third girl, Jennifer—they were in college at North Central…” And on and on the family tree spreads…Oh yes, the AG gene pool has become a bit restricted. Have you ever heard of the "blue people" in the hills and hollows around Troublesome and Ball Creeks in Kentucky? A recessive gene in their blood line actually started changing their skin color. Maybe the pool of “tongue-speakin” youngsters is shrinking a bit and bona fide available marrying candidates outside the family are hard to come by?!

It reminds me of Ray Steven’s song, “I’m My Own Grandpa.” Here you go…

Now many, many years ago when I was twenty-three
I was married to a Widder who was pretty as can be
This Widder had a grown up daughter who had hair of red
My father fell in love with her and soon they two were wed.

This made my dad my son-in-law and changed my very life
My daughter was my mother for she was my father's wife
To complicate the matter even though it brought me joy
I soon became the father of a bouncing baby boy.

My little baby then became a brother-in-law to dad
And so became my uncle though it made me very sad
For if he was my uncle then that also made him brother
Of the Widder’s grown up daughter who of course was my step-mother.

Father's wife then had a son who kept him on the run
And he became my grandchild for he was my daughter's son
My wife is now my mother's mother and it makes me blue
Because although she is my wife, she's my grandmother too.

Now if my wife is my grandmother, then I'm her grandchild
And every time I think of it, it nearly drives me wild
For now I have become the strangest case you ever saw
As husband of my grandmother, I am my own grandpa.

I for one am glad our leaders actually chose and innovative District Superintendent out of the interrelated AG gene pool to serve…maybe he’ll shake things up and bring some of the great ideas from Ohio to Springfield and the entire movement!

Remember, you may be an AG redneck if, “You’ve been married three times but you still have the same inlaws!”; January 19, 2008 7:05 AM
Dave said...: G.P.W.,

Don't worry about the comments of the few anonymous snipers. (I know you won't.) As a ministry friend told me years ago, "Don't wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pigs enjoy it." :-)

--Dave; January 19, 2008 7:12 AM
Dave said...: This post has been removed by the author.; January 19, 2008 7:19 AM
freind of george said...: Someone said, "It's convenient to paint GPW into a place where he can't respond because of who his father is." Perhaps. But for me the bigest indicator that our frend had lost his bearings was his first line of defense was emotional followed by his "Oh one more thing....Clay got votes". When facts and logic follow that far behind emotion it is a sign emotions are running the show. Releax George. If you sit back, take a breath and wait a few minutes before responding, others may end up making your point for you.; January 19, 2008 7:45 AM
Jim said...: Hey Ben. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on a blog where it is encouraged. GPW can say whatever he wants to say but so can everyone else. Disagreeing or having an opinion other than someone elses does not mean you are bitter. Some of you guys need to toughen up and not be so thinned skinned. And some who really have limited knowledge to the nepotism that definately has gone on in Springfield (and I have lived there and seen it up close and personal) need to open your minds to the fact that it just might exist and lives on through an announcement like this.; January 19, 2008 7:45 AM
Will said...: Since when do the unchurched even know who the Treasurer of the National office is? Why would they care and unless one of you anonymous fellows chose to tell them how would they even know Doug Clay is related, by marriage, to Palmer? Come on now. AND Why would we start off a conversation with someone who needs Jesus with, "Hey did you know that the National Treasurer for the AG is the brother-in-law of the National Secretary?"; January 19, 2008 8:47 AM
Mary Jo said...: This line of comments has to be one of the lowest points of this blog. I don't find that redneck stuff at all funny.

Quick, George, WWBGD?; January 19, 2008 9:15 AM
Anonymous said...: Mary Jo...maybe people need to see the line of comments as a commentary of where the AG is more than where this blog is?; January 19, 2008 9:18 AM
Mary Jo said...: I don't agree that Pastor Clay's election is due to family relations.; January 19, 2008 9:21 AM
Anonymous said...: Well Mary Jo it certainly didn't hurt him beng related now did it? I don't think there is any sinister plot here but the appearance is not good considering the short-term progress that had been made in changing the perception of what goes on in Springfield. Now there are questions that come up as to what really has changed if anything at all.; January 19, 2008 9:35 AM
humor guy said...: check out this picture of the new executive team. Cut and paste to browser.

http://www.tvshowsondvd.net/graphics/news3/AllInTheFamilyS6.jpg; January 19, 2008 9:50 AM
humor guy said...: Check out this picture of the new executive team.

http://www.tvshowsondvd.net/graphics/news3/AllInTheFamilyS6.jpg; January 19, 2008 9:56 AM
Mary Jo said...: The tone has changed since August when many wanted Pastor Clay in Springfield. Many wanted representation by a younger man, who was perceived as having a better understanding of the present needs of our fellowship and had a proven track record. Passing up on such an opportunity as to have Pastor Clay in Springfield because of his family relations would have been a shame. Having Pastor Clay in Springfield will only bring the A/G closer to being the absolutely relevant fellowship we all desire.; January 19, 2008 10:47 AM
George P. Wood said...: Anonymous January 18, 2008 9:25 PM:

You wrote: "George P WOOD denouncing nepotism is hilarious."

What are you suggesting? That I have my position as the pastor of a 100-person turnaround church because of my dad? Or that my dad has his position because of me? What precisely do you mean by nepotism? You throw the word around without ever defining it.

You go on to say, "I'm sure that his comments have nothing to do with his father being the head of the A/G." You know how I found out that Doug Clay was elected? By reading the comment section on Paul Grabill's post. I haven't even talked to my dad since Doug got elected. What has made me so angry about your comments and those of others is the reflexive cynicism they display.

Then you conclude: "Hit me with your comments now George as I know you will be you of all people should not be waving the banner speaking against nepotism. It rings hollow." Again, how precisely have I benefited my from my dad's job? I left a cushy job as associate pastor of a 3000 member church, moved 125 miles with my wife to a different city to become the pastor of a 100-person turnaround church. And my dad wasn't involved in the process of selecting me; my district superintendent was. Oh, and I'm up for my year vote tomorrow. For all I know, I'll get voted out.

So, in addition to your reflexive cynicism about Doug Clay, I guess you're just driven by some sort of irrational resentment of me.

How sad. Get over it.

GPW

WWBGD? She wouldn't be this cynical about Doug Clay's election, I imagine. She'd congratulate him and pray he contributes mightily to this movement.; January 19, 2008 10:58 AM
Anonymous said...: GPW...your percptions of Springfield and all that goes on there is what rings hollow. No one has said you have a position because of your dad. But to try to get people to believe that your opinions and views are not swayed by the fact that your dad is GS is tough to swallow.; January 19, 2008 11:06 AM
Anonymous said...: Is it intersting that disagreement equals cynical. Talk about getting over it GPW...get over it!!; January 19, 2008 11:07 AM
Anonymous said...: The tone of GPW post really turned me off in his last post, I wouldn't want him as a pastor or on my staff with his attitude. Maybe with all of your anger Mr. GPW you should be voted out of your position. You really need to examine yourself, brother. Cushy job- assistant pastor is it a job to you or is it ministry? You are so touchy junior, people are rightfully expressing their opinions!; January 19, 2008 11:09 AM
Clay and Cook Yeah!! said...: My word boys and girls...lighten up! GPW--we're praying for your vote tomorrow! Thanks for your input on this site.

Some of us are 100% behind Doug Clay--and Bob Cook is also coming to head up AG Higher Education (another excellent choice--I have no idea who he is or isn't related to).

Much of the blog sphere is just good-spirited banter. I personally couldn't care less who's related to whom as long as they will help change the rudder direction of the ship!

By the way, here's a good-spirited picture of Clay and Cook headed back to the Ozarks home of the Beverly Hillbillies: http://hoox.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/hillbilly.jpg; January 19, 2008 11:22 AM
Anonymous said...: Those boys have aged just a bit. Too funny!!; January 19, 2008 11:45 AM
Anonymous said...: Will -- it is me, not anonymous that made the comment about the unchurched view. Give our national media, NPR, some time and it will be reported on. Especially in this Grassley era. But that's OK, I think our leadership made a good choice. Most of us have family members in ministry. That's not necessarily redneckism (Although I love that song) but a sign of good Christian upbringing from generation to generation. Something that needs to be celebrated because there's not much of it anymore.

To anonymous -- leave GPW alone. I almost made his point last night. There's dozens of churches that would offer him a cushy job becuase of his dad. He has the integrity to follow God's leading to a hard place.

Finally, I think implementation of policy might be made at cherry tables and leather chairs, but I guarantee that the direction is formed in a much less spectacular place of prayer. Dr. Woods seemed just as comfortable sitting on a folding chair at a broken table on worn tile in an old building eating home-made Mexican food at a potluck with our poverty line congregation. I'll trust him to put together the team he needs.

Marvin J. Miller; January 19, 2008 11:47 AM
Ken DeChant said...: I've got to tell you... I never expected all of these comments when I clicked on this thread. From my observations as a pastor in Ohio, Pastor Clay has never had to ride on any relative's coattails to obtain the level of influence that he enjoys today in Ohio. Here's the odd thing: I never even knew that he was related to Palmer... It has been a non factor in Ohio!

Congratulations Pastor Clay! Ohio is certainly going to miss your leadership as DS, but we're excited about the expansion of your leadership on a national level.; January 19, 2008 12:14 PM
Lane said...: This post has been removed by the author.; January 19, 2008 12:31 PM
Lane Douglas said...: George...

Don't feed the trolls, my friend. They only grow worse.; January 19, 2008 12:33 PM
Don Miller said...: Congrats to Doug Clay! He will do an outstanding job...and will be a voice for so many who are crying on this blog site for change...even those who are screaming foul that he has been chosen.

It has been my privilege to know both John Palmer and Doug Clay for around 25 years now. Both are men of impeccable integrity and are cutting-edge leaders. What is interesting is they each have their own style and approach to leadership.

Let us remember that when Doug Clay was appointed as National Youth Director and then again when elected as District Sup. of Ohio, it was not because he was John Palmer's brother-in-law but because he is a leader with innovative thinking and plugged in to the spirit of God

Wouldn't it be a shame if we disqualified leaders because they happen to be related to other leaders. Maybe rather than stressing over what "those outside" will think, we should watch this unfold. I think we will all be pleased at the outcome!; January 19, 2008 1:31 PM
George P. Wood said...: I apologize for the tone of my remarks. I have been disappointed by what I take to be the reflexive cynicism about the election of Doug Clay. But personal disappointment is not an excuse for acting uncharitably toward others.

George; January 19, 2008 2:45 PM
Lane Douglas said...: Way to take the high road, George. I'm waiting for Anonymous (11:09 AM) to post their apology for the comment under that time stamp. That post proved my point made weeks ago that some use anonymity simply to sling mud and hide and not for "protection." I, for one, would have no problem, George, with you deleting that one. I'm sure the majority of the other bloggers would agree.; January 19, 2008 3:00 PM
Anonymous said...: I do not think anyone is saying that Doug Clay is riding on John Palmer's coat tails. He's accomplished a lot personally and in ministry. In fact, John Palmer was technically unemployed for the year preceeding his election as the General Secretary.

My take is that people are questioning if this was a good move based on input like the blogger who stated the quorum scenario. They make a good point. If a quorum is 4 out of the six execs and the brother-in-laws are two of the four? I'm not sure this is a good decision in any venue.; January 19, 2008 3:05 PM
Zorro said...: Zorro to the rescue!

GPW, you hang in there, Trooper! You and I have not seen eye-to-eye on several issues, but you're a good man. WHAT LOSERS these guys are to pick on you ANONYMOUSLY and on a Blog site; and how UNGODLY.

There is no way the guys saying this stuff are in ministry. Let's face it...this is an OPEN Forum. Any wing-nut with a computer can post here, including SATAN!!!

Ignore 'em.; January 19, 2008 3:10 PM
Anonymous said...: George P...you have to be careful, because you kind of prove the point (family). When the Trask Team was in office you never seemed to have a problem with the free flow of criticism that was bantered about (i.e. your friend Paul Stewart's post and others).

Now that your father is in this position and has a team and is being criticised you seem to "protest too much." It would appear your objectivity regarding the free flow of information has been comprised by your relationship with your father, which is natural.

Thus the question that seems to be concerning many on this blog site and throughout the fellowship, "Is it wisdom to place family members on this leadership team or will it set us up for unnecessary challenges due to family ties and loyalities."; January 19, 2008 3:18 PM
Dave Olson said...: There is long and strong scriptural precedence for families leading together: God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; Moses and Aaron (God took care fo the grumbling on that one); Jesus Himself appointed two sets of brothers (Blood and not merely in-laws) to His inner circle.

We need to be careful that we don't find ourselves on the wrong side of an issue due to emotional cultural misgivings.

Clay was appointed after serving very well in his last post. Palmer was voted in.

One last comment: someone said "the unchurched will look at this suspiciously." Do you really think the unchurched give a flip about our hierchy? It isn't even on thier radar.; January 19, 2008 3:35 PM
George P. Wood said...: Anonymous January 19, 2008 3:18 PM:

If you can show me where I have been inconsistent in my treatment of criticism of Brother Trask and my dad, I'm more than happy to publicly acknowledge my error.

For the record, I believe that no leader is beyond criticism, including my dad. Also for the record, I believe that there is a right way to deliver criticism and a wrong way.

I have striven in my posts and comments on this blog to call out what I consider to be ad hominem critiques that assume the worst about our others' motives and actions, critiques that focus on personality rather than issues, dark conspiracies rather than daylight facts.

But again, I'm more than happy to publicly acknowledge my error in inconsistent treatment of Brother Trask and my dad, if you'll show me where I've done it.

George; January 19, 2008 3:58 PM
Anonymous said...: GPW just keeps feeding this thing. Just chill George and it will die down. If your motives are as pure as you say they are then why the need to be so defensive throughout the whole discussion?; January 19, 2008 4:04 PM
Zorro said...: Yeah, GPW, these guys aren't worth their salt. We're defending you, let it go, bro.; January 19, 2008 4:05 PM
miss-wife said...: Long time reader/first time writer: I LOVE the exchange of views that I've read over the past several months. Thank you to George and others for opening this forum. I choose to be AG and to put my trust in the leadership. I therefore have to trust their decision to select Doug Clay. In my experience the current issue gets down to this: Right or wrong, whichever view you take, the decision is made. If anyone doesn't like it, we the people have the "power" to put people and policies in place so that OUR A/G refects US and future decisions reflect that. Let's work at making voting and policy-setting available to all and then participate in the process. Can we start a discussion about that? Bringing the "process" to the people?? MHO...; January 19, 2008 4:21 PM
Anonymous said...: WHEN DO YOU GUYS HAVE TIME TO WRITE SERMONS, LEAD STAFF AND REACH YOUR COMMUNITIES?

This blog has become the "minority whip" of the Assemblies of God. I would bet your churches are suffering.; January 19, 2008 4:33 PM
Julio said...: If you had time to write this on a Sat afternoon you obviously are not writing a sermon, leading your staff or reaching your community at the moment. Your statement is a bit hypocritical wouldn't you think?; January 19, 2008 4:36 PM
www.sermoncentral.com said...: Writing sermons? You've got to be kidding...this is the 21st century! That's what podcasts are for...I'm kidding! Haven't you heard of www.sermoncentral.com?

Why would a pastor have to lead you to reach your friends and circle of influence for Jesus (unless you're personally not being salty and bright).

Sermonettes by preacherettes make Christianette...ha! And GPW--I don't care if he is your Dad...he's doing a great job of bringing this rusty movement into the 21st century...Doug Clay is just what we need (what's a treasurer do anyway? count the $?); January 19, 2008 4:55 PM
pastormsps said...: My first thought exactly when I read about his appointment. He's an incredibly sharp guy. So what do they do? Stick him behind a desk counting the A/G's millions. Brilliant. I sense the winds of revival right now. (; January 19, 2008 6:02 PM
Zorro said...: "This blog has become the "minority whip" of the Assemblies of God. I would bet your churches are suffering."

uhh..NO. On the contrary; I can honestly say that our church has benefited from this Blog. I disagree with about half the stuff that goes on here, but it is still a place of learning for me.

In regards to time management; uh, I'm a Senior Pastor, so I think I better have figured that one out a long time ago.

BTW, where did all these HATERS come from???; January 19, 2008 6:16 PM
Zorro said...: www.SermonCentral.com is cool. (The commenter, not the site!)

And, as a matter of fact, I personally lead our church in 2-hours of street evangelism, did an hour of personal evangelism TODAY, and still had time to write on this thing.

TIME MANAGEMENT.; January 19, 2008 6:18 PM
Marvin J. Miller said...: Dave Olsen & Will.

Let me clarify what I meant by my unchurched comment. I don't have as excellent command of language as does Lane, GPW, et al. Next time I'll hire an out of work screen writer and be more precise. Then, I posted anonysmously because I hit the wrong button and couldn't find an undo.

I was trying to make a point. 1) You're right, the typical person on the street doesn't know, doesn't care about the church hierarchy. 2) The media brokers, have in the past found these particular stories interesting, especially in 20th century pentecostalism. Think the Tomlinsons in early 1900's. 2) Bylaws in many places (i.e. Wisconsin) have been designed to be wary of such arrangements. 3) Charisma magazine has recently discussed such things in light of other recent events in family structured ministries and the Grassely Congressional Investigations. 4) I am confident that any potential negatives, including this very topic were thoroughly analyzed and were determined to have a much less negative factor than the positive things that will occur. Then the Spirit of God gives direction and trumps everything else. If all of us had never embarked on things that might not make since to the unchurched in this world, none of us would be in ministry.

Many of us were reared in a culture that championed meritocracy over all else. Status quo was to remain. Don't do anything or make any comment that might yield an ill reputation. Let me say this. A transformative leader will at times take a controversial stand, despite the misgivings of traditionalists in order to help make the hard change happen. Leaders who seek to maintain the status quo never have this to worry about.

At the end of the day, its all about how we are reaching souls for Christ. I think the most interesting news on Friday was not this announcement, but the article on the bar chaplains in Pennsylvania. My dear sainted grandmother would roll over in her grave, becuase back then we didn't drink or chew, nor hang out with those that do.

The future of the AG ultimately rests in how we creatively reach our world for Christ, not anything else. (for my senior friends, que the Christs Ambassadors' theme song)

Have a great Lord's Day!

Marvin J. Miller
mjmiller@palmviewchristian.org; January 19, 2008 6:35 PM
Tom & Jan Bougher said...: George – Doug Clay will be a great asset to the Executive Team. His life has been directed by God. His positions were because of Doug’s abilities, and God’s blessing. Anyone who knows John and Doug will tell you – these guys will pray over every decision- what more could we ask for? We were voting for Doug in Indianapolis –because we know what he has done for Ohio. I see this as a God thing.

Bob Cook is another guy that will be a tremendous blessing to our fellowship!
We have moved into another era with both of these guys.
I am no prophet, neither the son of a prophet, but this will prove to be a great week in the A/G’s.

I am looking forward to seeing these guys add their hearts and voices to Springfield.

(George rest easy – God’s in control of the vote. Our prayers are with you!)

Tom Bougher; January 19, 2008 7:23 PM
Anonymous said...: Wow........all the sudden poor GPW has become a victim. What about the people just sharing their honest opinion that in an out of control fashion he denegrated?; January 19, 2008 8:23 PM
Lane Douglas said...: Don't feed the trolls...; January 19, 2008 8:41 PM
Danny "dj" Morales said...: Doug Clay elected as General Treasurer:

thousands of amens

George P Wood apologizing for his comments:

positive cool points

23 anonymous comments and zero anonymous apologies to go with them:

priceless

There are some things that blood ties can't buy. For this election, there's answered PrayerCards.; January 20, 2008 12:29 AM
chris sutton said...: From: Australian AOG minister, Chris Sutton ... ... I'm not part of your American fellowship, so I tend to see things from my Australian cultural bias, both nationally,and AOG-wise, so here goes ... I think those who see conspiracy theories behind this decision, should know that in Australia, our Executive had two brothers-in-law serving during a 16 year period together. ... And they both served succesively as the Ass't Superintendent. Why? Because they were both anointed, proven leaders of great growing churches,and also very effective state AOG leaders. ( = District Supt's in US.) Also one of our current executive leaders is Ashley Evans, son of former Sup't Andrew Evans, whose father was Tommy Evans, a great missionaryleader in India and Papua New Guinea. Our inspiring current Sup't Brian Houston, had his father serving on our exec,before he did. I think it's a great thing,that this Godly influence has impacted families and generations. These 'relatives' have been recognized because of the fruit of their leadership and character.I assure you that they would have gone no-where,in national leadership, through mere nepotism. You have elected a wonderfully wise,generous hearted new Sup't in George Wood, but obviously he's not going to serve 14 years like Sup't Trask, simply because of age, so I think putting proven younger leaders on your exec team is good planning for your future,as a movement! Don't we believe God is in control,as we pray,and elect leaders?(... including those who have to chose new execs,when there's a vacancy. Or is that belief just something we preach for those in our churches to practise? ) Cheer Up! - Chris Sutton, Melbourne, Australia.; January 20, 2008 2:36 AM
Amy said...: Wow...I have not had time to read this blog in a while....but in reading it today, I am shocked byt he lack of maturity (and the conspiracy theorist).

It sounds to me that a lot of people don't want to work together and solve problems-they just want to fight until somehow they can say they are right. I'm not interested in that kind of childishness.

Congratulations Doug Clay! I look forward to great days ahead.; January 20, 2008 6:07 AM
Anonymous said...: Amy. EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion and just because it doesn't line up with yours or GPW's or whoever doesn't mean they are immature or divisive.

Proverbs 28:23 - In the end, people appreciate frankness more than flattery. NLT; January 20, 2008 7:02 AM
Lane Douglas said...: Anonymous...

You are 100% right. People having varying opinions is not a sign of immaturity. But I am pretty sure that what Amy is referring to are the quotes that look like this:

Maybe with all of your anger Mr. GPW you should be voted out of your position.(11:09 AM)

You are so touchy junior, (11:09 AM)

I'm pretty sure that the word "frankness" in the passage you just quoted does not imply that this type of garbage is endorsed by God.; January 20, 2008 12:05 PM
DonAlive said...: I would bet that much of the anger reflected in this blog's "Doug Clay Elected General Treasurer" string, comes from bitter hearts and reflects to some degree a form of grief over some unspecified personal pain or failure wrought in a preacher’s hard ministry struggle.
Life just isn’t fair and neither is the ministry. Hard ministry in the trenches of this world, the difficult places, produces what I like to call, “combat ministry fatigue.” This is what some of these guys are going through. They are lashing out. Some may even have dropped out of a ministry, for a time. I actually hear and sense deep hurt from these dog piling critics of JPW. Ministry does leave casualties and often these casualties react in this fashion.
So, let our response to the criticism be measured and nurturing, not vindictive and reactive. Let us also take heed, because many of us would be vulnerable to the same expressions of pain if we went through the ringer that some of us must experience. Compassion is in order.
An approach to such unbridled rhetoric might be a back and forth debate, but I believe we would be much more constructive to offer prayer for these anonymous commentators.
In truth, I can see how someone might be disturbed over legitimate nepotistic scandals in our movement. We have had and do have some. To deny this is unreasonable. Perhaps, the real issue from these critics comes from their feeling that they have been personally injured in some way due to such nepotism. We need to distinguish a harmful form of nepotism, where individuals are unethically elevated due to family relations, from simply facilitating competent family members into service because of a competence derived from a healthy Christian upbringing.
Thank God for parents who nurture their children in such a way that they want to serve in the ministry. Many of us can not do that. I wish to God that I had such a parent. So, nepotism may be a valid concern in the AOG, but to preclude skilled people, who happen to have family ties, from advancing to positions of pastoral or administrative authority in our organization is the wrong decision. It is a waste of resources; it is unfair; it is scripturally unsound. It is simply wrong headed. Balance and integrity should be the rule on this issue.; January 20, 2008 12:23 PM
Anonymous said...: While I think it is an inapropriate appointment personally it won't affect my life or ministry one iota. I think actually that we lost on this one because Doug would be more effective as a DS in Ohio than a treasurer in Spfld. We got weaker as a movement through this appointment.

Now in the system that we have of guys moving up the ladder perhaps one day Doug will have more influence and help chart new direction but GW was pretty sharp all those years as the General Secretary but he did not have the impact he is having now because those positions just don't carry that clout.; January 20, 2008 12:50 PM
Confident Leaders said...: Confident leaders bring strong, gifted leaders around them. The fact that GW is bringing these guys on board is evidence that he will utilize their gifts and listen to their voice. I'm sure Doug Clay and Bob Cook both asked GW if their contributions would be welcomed--and if not, they would have stayed in OH and CO. I think the treasurer role in essence is the Chief Operations Officer--lots could be done in this role to build effective systems that support the work of churches and parachurch ministies.; January 20, 2008 1:02 PM
Gene Roncone said...: George,

We have only met a couple times over the years. I have not felt the need to comment on this blog over these past months, but something was said that has weighed on my spirit these past few days

An "anonymous" person stating "Maybe with all of your anger Mr. GPW you should be voted out of your position.(11:09 AM)"

This kind of statment IS NOT an opion. At best it is embarasingly cutting. I do not know what one calls wishing something so painful on another miniter. I guess it is the oppositte of blessing them in a sense. Slander on the wings of opinion is cowardly and there is no honor before the Lord in participating in it.

So be blessed freind and keep your head up. Class seems to be a dying bread in these types of internet atmosphers. You are appreciated!; January 20, 2008 1:45 PM
Dr. Daddy said...: I must say that news of Doug Clay being elected Treasurer of the AG was a bit of a shock to me. The shock came not because of Doug, but because I figured it would take a little while to find someone to fill a spot as specialized as that one.

I went to school with Doug and have always found him to be a gracious individual, and one who has been given many opportunities for leadership in his life. To my knowledge, he has handled each of these with a great deal of character. So, to Doug I say, "Congratulations."

Now, on to the bigger question: "What exactly does the treasurer do?" I find it interesting that there is so much frothing at the mouth about this issue when I would be quite surprised if most posting here are familiar with the job description, and Doug's qualifications in relationship to that job description.

My only concern is that with the growth of the financial complexities of the AG, I am concerned that we put a pastor in a position that might require someone with significant financial management training. But, then I don't really know the job. What I do know is that Christian organizations (the AG included) have a long history of promoting their brightest young leaders into positions beyond their expertise.

I would think that as smart a man as George Wood is, that he is quite capable of matching a person to a job description. Let's give the guy and his team the benefit of the doubt here.

As for the nepotism comments, will someone please point me to the biblical edict that prohibits the selection of a well-qualified relative to a position of leadership on your team? If this were true, half of the strongest ministry teams (small church, medium church, and large church) in the country would be in trouble.

Finally, for what it's worth, I vote that "anonymous" postings not be permitted on this blog. It took me far too long to figure out who is posting.; January 20, 2008 1:48 PM
Billy Bob said...: Here. My posting is not anonymous now. Feel better?:); January 20, 2008 1:52 PM
Believing in the Future said...: George O. Wood has worked hard to listen to the many various groups within the AG especially younger pastors in our fellowship. We saw that by Dr. Wood inviting all the pastors who started this blog to meet with him in Springfield.

Did you also know that Dr. Wood chose a 33 year old pastor to serve as his administrator in Springfield? That's a first!

Maybe we should look at the bigger picture and recognize we have a Superintendent who is doing more than listening, he's taking action and surrounding himself with new people, new voices, and leading this fellowship forward! Doug Clay is going to be a great asset to the Executive Team in Springfield.; January 20, 2008 1:52 PM
Dan said...: What a privilege it is to have our dialogue, and freedom to do so, concerning matters of such importance as the direction of a movement intended to utilize the power of the Holy Spirit to reach as many people with the love of Christ as possible. The Assemblies of God has a rich history of doing just that. Yet, like any human institution, she has not been immune from engaging in self-destructive behavior. However, I would agree with those who urge CIVIL discourse in such a blogosphere of fellow ministers of that gospel.

That being said – and yes, I feel better now, as catharsis is apparently a portion of the purpose of this blog – the issue is not one of politics, nor of pundits, but of persons.

In my interactions with George Wood, John Palmer, and Doug Clay, I can honestly say that there is a trifecta of connected cords. Each man has sterling character – we ought to be careful not to impugn by insinuation that which we have not observed firsthand. The second quality is a genuine affability. These three men are a joy to be around, and they consistently make the individuals with which they spend time know that they are valued and loved. The third quality is that of a passion for the church – the hope of the world expressed in the form of the Bride of Christ. And, while some wish to pick her scabs, these men have demonstrated over time a love for the bride, hope for her healing, and a passion for her expression of the bridegroom’s love in a lost world.

So, what issues remain? Nepotism? Only if such creates a blockade of opinion expressed in corporate direction. Since there are other executives present aside from the brothers-in-law, this seems to be a consideration, but not a blanket disqualification for service. I’m thinking they may have discussed this, but frankly, if they didn’t, is it my business. Only if I stand in “supervision” over them. The office carries with it inherent rights – and the right of appointment until the next election is such a right.

Ah, the real rub – we all want a “democratic process.” Perhaps we have touted democracy in the A/G for too long. That may disturb some – do you hear that release of the air on the vacuum pack of that can of worms – yet, while valued, can we at least agree that democratic process should not be the HIGHEST value of the A/G and her leadership.

Job description? That would have been nice to see in ANY of our electoral decisions on any level above the local pastor. We don’t really do this well in any area of our district and national leadership – so why ask, after the fact, for a job description just because we don’t like the decision? Maybe we should focus our energies on changing the process rather than challenging the persons. But I, for one, know that I've never felt "qualified" for anything to which God has called me - He usually doesn't call the qualified, He qualifies the called.

But let’s engage that for just a moment. I do not pretend to know what the job description is for the Treasurer, but I imagine it is NOT to be the sole attendant to the funds of the A/G. It is a position that requires leading a TEAM of people who are qualified to do this. In the area of team building and leadership we need to look no further than the previous post of the man who worked with Doug in Ohio – Rod Iberg. A humble and yet brilliant man (no, I’m no longer in the Ohio District, so I’m not expecting any remuneration for the statement :-) – his words are telling as he frames himself as one who “stands to lose as much as anyone in this” – leadership generates loyalty. Doug has proven himself a leader and a team player – qualities that will surely be an addition to the team in Springfield.

Bitter grapes make sour wine. Real issues may be addressed, but only in terms of future policy. The decision has been made. Personally, I think it is a good one. I can understand if those looking in from outside the spectrum of relationship may feel otherwise. Just do this pastor a favor – and perhaps yourself – be a problem solver, not a mudslinger. The world will not change because we find something wrong – it will change when we find something right. May the search for greater ideas be the blessing on this blog – for the sake of the King and His Kingdom.
-- Joy! Dan Lumadue; January 20, 2008 2:54 PM
Stanley Groeschel-Hybel said...: "Anonymous (January 19, 2008 4:33 PM)said...

WHEN DO YOU GUYS HAVE TIME TO WRITE SERMONS..."

Haven't you heard? Most pastors purchase their sermons from others these days.; January 20, 2008 6:35 PM
Anonymous said...: Mr Hybel...do you get yours from Rev Hybels?; January 20, 2008 6:43 PM
Pastor Jeremy said...: Sweet Jesus, the Giants are in the Super Bowl!!!!!!!!; January 20, 2008 7:17 PM
Anonymous said...: Hey George...how did the vote go?; January 20, 2008 9:32 PM
Conspiracy Theorist said...: I heard that both Doug Clay and John Palmer were on the grassy knoll.

Who is the EP over Area 51?; January 20, 2008 9:36 PM
Anonymous said...: Doug Clay is of course:); January 20, 2008 9:48 PM
Forecaster said...: I'm glad Clay was appointed. From everything i have heard about they guy, the AG is going to benefit. As far as the specific position...what does it really matter....he is in the leadership pipeline.

I am sure he will eventually lead the show...maybe take over for Wood. That would be my guess...

The question of bringing in management professionals to Mecca is seperate blog unto itself. The AG WOULD benefit from using Christians with business/secular degrees in the organizational side of the organization.

And yet...how much bureaucracy do we really need to continue to support? I wish we took a cue from the Acts 29 church planting network that Mark Driscoll helped start, [http://www.acts29network.org/about/welcome/]....tithe from member churches goes to a church planting fund to support church plants until they are sovereign...and all new church plants eventually tithe to it.

WHAT WE NEED TO REVITALIZE OUR MOVEMENT IS A SERIOUS PUSH TO PLANT CHURCHES. I know the Ohio District was big on church planting.; January 21, 2008 2:13 AM
Brian said...: posting blind...sorry if it is repeated...

George Wood asked Doug to be come treasurer not for financial reasons per se but because of his leadership in establishing a solid mentoring program in the Ohio district for which Dr Wood wants to establish on a national level.

Dr Wood was here in Arizona this weekend and we were at a special dinner for pastors and leaders in the north part of the state and heard him talk about it.

I think it is great!; January 21, 2008 3:12 AM
New Topic Generator said...: New Topics:
1. The role of the General Council--what do you want/need/expect from the GC? What changes would you recommend to Dr. Wood and his able team?
2. Same for the District Council.
3. How could we move to internet voting before the next General Council? Special action of the EP/GP/BofA?
4. Should we have a standardized process and coursework prescribed for all new licensees? No pastor left behind?
5. Should we require sustainment training every year for each credentialed minister? If so, what might it look like?
6. Any suggestions to improve the format of General Councils? Anyway to take care of the voting on whether BGMC is going to be "a" or "the" Children's arm of DFM or WM or whatever we changed the name to at some past General Council?
7. Is the KJV the only/best/most authorative translation of the Bible? Should we go back to hymns with a Western European origin in our worship services? Is there any acceptable time that pastors can take off their ties (showering, in bed, while mixed bathing/swimming)?; January 21, 2008 9:03 AM
George P. Wood said...: Anonymous January 20, 2008 9:32 PM:

Thank you for asking about my vote! I received 55 out of 66 votes cast, or 84%. To tell you the truth, waiting for that vote was one of the most nervewracking things I've ever experienced.

George; January 21, 2008 9:06 AM
Pablo D. Vizcay said...: To George P. Wood,

Congratulations!

Psalms 91:15; January 21, 2008 10:05 AM
Anonymous said...: Congrats George. I was praying for you and I'm thrilled for you. I'm hope that is ok even though this is anonymous:); January 21, 2008 10:06 AM
Anonymous 1:38 said...: It seems like a political step toward the General Sup's office to me. As an Ohian, I feel a little burned. It looks like Ohio was just a notch in the belt for Doug. He is a great leader, but it feels like he is taking the political fast track and not leading! We'll see...; January 21, 2008 12:02 PM
Marvin J. Miller said...: Congratulations George!

Now we'll pray you continue to have wisdom as you work to turn that church around. Looking forward to hearing praise reports in the future.

Marvin J. Miller
mjmiller@palmviewchristian.org; January 21, 2008 12:29 PM
Marvin J. Miller said...: Business Columnist Harvey Mackay's recently reviewed Keith MacFarland's new business book "The Breakthrough Company" It has some good lessons that might apply to churches (and the AG) as well. After surveying top successful companies, this is what was discovered.

1)Discover profitable niches where others see only challenges.

2)Focus on building an organization where you can hire ordinary people who can do extraordinary things.
3) Spend less time worrying about corporate culture than they do corporate character. You can't fake character.

4)Point to difficult times as the periods when their organizations learned the most and made the most progress.

5)Surround yourself with insultants. You must always have people who question your ways of doing business.

6)If everyone in the organization is taught to view their own departmental activities as always secondary to the needs of the customer, then employees will consider the customer their top priority."

7) Shift from commander to coach. Leaders must adapt their skill sets to begin coaching and developing new capabilities throughout the organization.

8) Encourage chaotic communication. You need to have an open-door policy. Everyone in an organization should be encouraged to talk to anyone at any time.

Of these, #5 is probably the hardest, at least for me. I don't take criticism to well.

Looking at it, seems to me that Springfield's doing a pretty darn good job...

Happy Reading...

Marvin J. Miller
mjmiller@palmviewchristian.org; January 21, 2008 12:53 PM
A/G Minister in Ohio said...: What if we actually hired someone who specialized in finance to run the finances of the AG? It is a multi-million dollar corporation and we bring in a pastor...I think nepotism is an accurate assumption!; January 21, 2008 12:57 PM
George P. Wood said...: AG Minister in Ohio:

I am intrigued by your suggestion about hiring a finance person to run the AG's finances. I think there is merit to trusting the finances of the movement to a duly qualified layperson. In the long term, this would require a change in our bylaws, I think. So perhaps you could sponsor a resolution at the 2009 General Council! In the short term, I think it's a good idea to put good leaders to work at the national level.

Ohio's loss is, for the time being anyway, the national movement's gain!

George; January 21, 2008 1:11 PM
Danny "dj" Morales said...: How is it nepotism if Dr. Wood was the one who asked him to come onboard? Was Doug Clay separated at birth and raised by she-wolves or something?

As far as financial qualifications, wasn't Brother Bridges a District Sup before his election to GT? Wait a minute, isn't Doug Clay a District Sup (a very successful one at that)?

As far as Brother Clay's motives, I guess God isn't his judge anymore or rewarder for proving himself at the district level. An anonymous blogger is.

priceless...; January 21, 2008 1:47 PM
George O. Wood said...: Good afternoon, on Martin Luther King Day. Today, indeed, is one in which we recognize the contributions of minorities to the mosaic of our nation. Also, within the Assemblies of God, 34% of our adherents are comprised of ethnic minorities. Thanks be to God for the rich diversity of this church!

Let me also congratulate my son, George Paul, on his election to an indefinite term as pastor. He has worked and prayed hard this past year, and the results show.

I also want to say that I am delighted Doug Clay is coming as general treasurer. There are certainly many in our AG Family that could have filled that role admirably, but I believe Doug brings to this responsibility tremendous assets to help us with national leadership matters beyond the day to day administration of the Treasury.

We have extremely competent people in our accounting (CPAs, etc.) and technology areas, so it is not necessary for a general treasurer to sit behind a desk and pour over financial statements all day. We have great people who manage and account for the money. What is needed from the general treasurer is an ability to manage and lead people in the division.

But, beyond that, I feel that every executive officer of the General Council should be looked upon for their spiritual leadership. Effectively, as a team, we are the spiritual elders for the Assemblies of God. I told Doug that I want him to have a wider berth of ministry beyond that of the finances of the General Council. Doug is a proven and younger innovative, Godly, and resourceful leader.

There is a wonderful team in place. All ministry flows out of relationship. I'm thrilled that all of us here in leadership -- Alton Garrison, John Palmer, James Bridges, John Bueno, Zollie Smith -- and now, Doug Clay -- are friends. I believe we have a chance to replicate what we read about in Acts 13:1-2 -- that even as there was a team of leaders in the Antioch church, so it will be here at the General Council as well.

We have a team that complements one another, that brings Godliness, spiritual energy, and innovation to our AG family.

I also want to say a word about Doug and John being brothers-in-law, since that was discussed on the blog.

John had no knowledge in advance that Doug was being considered. His first knowledge came in the EP meeting along with everyone else. Also, I did not feel it fair to exclude Doug from that position because he had a brother-in-law that was in executive office. Doug has always stood on his own two feet, and I don't think it's right that we discriminate for or against a person because of their family ties. We owe it to each person to assess their gifts and callings on an individual basis. Neither Doug nor John have ever leveraged off one another for anything in ministry -- what they have gained comes as a result of their own character and life.

Finally, I just want to say a word again about "tone." I realize that there is cynicism and suspicion among some in our ranks. I understand that. But, I think also we need to bring Biblical values to our attitudes and I do not sense from Scripture that cynicism is a fruit of the Spirit.

Is it possible for us to discuss differences and issues with charity toward one another?

I repeat what I said in earlier posts and have stated publicly a number of times. Never from me will there be retaliation to anyone for an opinion expressed. I believe the Assemblies of God, as a family, should be a place where we can speak to one another the truths we hold in love. We may not always agree with one another -- and that's okay. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. Civility and graciousness should be a part of word and deed.

In the next couple of weeks, credentialed ministers will be receiving a short 100 page book from me with your Ministers Letter. I will, through that book, talk with you about the enduring core values that are on my heart as we seek to serve Christ's cause with effectiveness and excellence. I hope you will have a chance to read it. Maybe there could even be a discussion about it on this or another blog and we can continue to benefit from dialog with one another. Blessings!

George O. Wood; January 21, 2008 2:04 PM
Jeff said...: Thanks Bro Wood. Sometimes passions get's misplaced but I believe everyone on here wants the best for the A/G. Thanks for leading us.; January 21, 2008 7:52 PM
David Copeland said...: Thanks Dr. Wood for stopping by to calm down the natives...

Lead us back to a genuine move of the Holy Spirit!; January 21, 2008 7:57 PM
David Copeland said...: Oops!

rather lead us forward into a fresh move of the Holy Spirit!; January 21, 2008 7:58 PM
Anonymous said...: Reading Dr. Woods comments, hearing him speak a time or two, makes me want to consider pursuing ministry as a pastor in the A/G. He is definitely the chosen leader not just by man, but by God for this season. I am so impressed. He certainly is on my prayer list, and I pray his passion spreads.

Steve
Springfield, MO; January 22, 2008 4:57 AM
Anonymous said...: Dr. Wood,
Thanks for speaking to the situation. I think the cynic in all of us can get ahead of rationally approaching the situation.

While I remain undecided on how I feel about this addition (I feel that AG politics is being played), I trust you and your leadership. Thanks!; January 22, 2008 6:42 AM
Brandon Lemois said...: It is easy to speak anonymously when all you are doing is speculating. After Dr. Wood's comment there is no speculation left, therefore no cynical, anonymous posts. Praise God!

Don't forget God's hand in the election of leaders and the wisdom of our leaders already in place - its a privilege to serve under and be equipped by them.

It is OK to not agree with everything someone does, but we have to trust that God knows what he is doing when he picks leaders and that our leadership is hearing him when they cast the vote.

And please... post your name and believe in what your saying.; January 22, 2008 9:13 AM
Pablo D. Vizcay said...: Dr. Wood,

Thank You; January 22, 2008 10:46 AM
Anonymous said...: Brother Wood and others, here is the problem I alongwith some ministers from Ohio may be having with the appointment: It "appears" to be "another rung on the ladder" move on a personal level, for Doug Clay and a politically correct move for the fellowship.
Rev. Clay hasn't even been in the Ohio DS role four years. Before that his tenure at the church in Toledo wasn't very long... preceded by a very short term in the National Youth Office, preceded by a short stint in the DYD's role, etc. Doug told us less that six months ago the General Secretary's role (which has a very similiar skill set of that of the General Treasurer...i.e. many Districts have a Secretary/Treasurer) was not in his skill set and nothing excited him more than to be in Ohio and produce his "Monday Motivator" and be the "Teaching Pastor" for the Ohio District. John Palmer's election happened on some level or another because Doug was not in the mix. (Why the two top positions are elected from the entire body and subordinate roles must have 15 votes from the GPs for nomination is beyond me. Did Beth Grant after receiving the third highest vote count in the election for the Assistant General Superintendent reject consideration for General Secretary? If she was not considered by the GPs that was an atrocity on our fellowships part. But that is another subject.)
One of our ministers asked asked one of the National ELT, "What are Doug's qualifications for being General Treasurer?" The response he received was, "He doesn't need to know anything about finances we have bigger plans." AG, if you want Doug to have a mentoring role, he'll do a great job, but just create the position for him to do that in an unencumbered fashion. So my question is,
"Have we just elected a figurehead to a position that you consider obsolete to begin with?"; January 22, 2008 11:05 AM
Anonymous said...: Wow, Great Points/Questions!; January 22, 2008 11:43 AM
Brandon Lemois said...: This post has been removed by the author.; January 22, 2008 11:44 AM
Another Ohio Guy... said...: It seems to me that the "good old boy" network is still alive and well for the A/G.

Dr. Wood - if read this, this looks horrible! That's where the outrage comes from. Yes, there is some cynicism, but is it unfounded?

I felt there was so much promise for the A/G open on Dr. Wood's election, but that hope is waning - at least for this long-time minister.; January 22, 2008 12:57 PM
Anonymous said...: Trust me...Doug's been "climbing" that ladder since he first got to Springfield long ago. This should not be a surprise and it is disconcerting to many in the fellowship. Being concerned or disagreeing does not make one a cynic. Perhaps in this case it makes one wise!!; January 22, 2008 1:02 PM
Pastor wannabe said...: to anonymous January 22, 2008 11:05 AM:

I understand your concerns. I do. At the same time I do believe ONE of the roles Dr Wood is serving in his position as GS is transitional - helping the AG find a new GS to lead the movement into the future.

Doug Clay could be that future....; January 22, 2008 1:12 PM
Anonymous said...: The voting members select the next GS - not just Dr. Wood! Let us decide!!! This cronyism must STOP!!!; January 22, 2008 1:14 PM
A/G Pastor in TX said...: Hey everyone...the can called and it wants its worms back!

Talk about opening a can of worms...; January 22, 2008 1:20 PM
Jim said...: I guess what bothers me is the timing. We just had GC a few months ago. The body should have decided this. It seems that an officer held off on retiring so they could appoint someone to the position, one that in my memory has never been more controversial.; January 22, 2008 1:22 PM
George P. Wood said...: Anonymous January 22, 2008 1:14 PM:

The General Council elected James Bridges as General Treasurer at its last meeting. It also elected the Executive Leadership Team and the Executive Presbytery at its last meeting. According to our Constitution and Bylaws, in the the case of a vacancy in the executive leadership team, the Executive Presbytery has the power to elect someone to fill out the vacant term of office. I'm not sure how it's cronyism for the people whom we elected at our last General Council to do what our Constitution and Bylaws requires them to do.

George; January 22, 2008 1:54 PM
Anonymous said...: Hopefully it was all above board and not just a matter of not wanting 3 officers retiring at the same council.; January 22, 2008 2:04 PM
Anonymous said...: George P.,
Your intent is correct, however, to be exact, James Bridges was not elected at the last Council. He was last re-elected in Denver, in '05.
The problem that people are having across the fellowship is that from the General Secretary's role to now the General Treasurer, seemingly there were politics involved. Even the most naive person has to concede this point.
Funny/Sad story: There is a former member of Senator John Ashcroft's staff that now works for HQ. When he left Senator Ashcroft's office Mr. Ashcroft allegedly said, "Now you are going to work with the real politicians."; January 22, 2008 2:07 PM
Anonymous said...: OUCH!!; January 22, 2008 2:14 PM
Beaty said...: So much stupidity, so little time.

Congrats George P. on your re-election. I have been through that and know how crazy it is. I also want to thank you for your tremendous thoughts and comments on this blog as well as your leadership. From one young minister to another, thanks.

My question to everyone who has such huge questions are: 1)What would you have done had Doug Clay been elected, as well as John Palmer? Who would you blame the nepotism on there? 2) Do any of you read the Constitution and Bylaws of our fellowship before you start ranting? So many of you have accused the ELT of inappropriate activities, when all they were doing was following the rules. If you have a problem, write an amendment and get it changed.

I don't know anything about Doug Clay, but I trust the leadership that I elected and that God put in place to make righteous decisions. But I forgot that all of you could do better...; January 22, 2008 2:28 PM
George P. Wood said...: Anonymous January 22, 2008 2:07 PM:

Thank you for the correction on James Bridges' election!

When you say, "there were politics involved," what does that mean to you? Are you suggesting that neither Palmer nor Clay are qualified for office, but they were elected anyway, because there were politics involved? Or are you suggesting that they are qualified for office, but they were elected not on the basis of those qualifications but only on the basis of politics? You'll have to pardon my naivete, but I really don't understand which of these two options you're trying to imply about Palmer and Clay's elections.

Second, am I the only person who is disturbed by an anonymous posting sharing an alleged quotation about an unnamed former Ashcroft staffer who currently works at HQ--and more than that, citing this as proof of "politics" as HQ. Unless sourced, isn't that outright gossip?

George; January 22, 2008 2:32 PM
of course he said that! said...: It's perfectly normal (although I wish it weren't) for ministers to say what is considered the right thing (even when it might not be their true feelings) when they do not get a position they wanted and have to stay where they are. Of course Doug said he was perfectly happy to stay in OH and do his thing there. What else is he supposed to say that will not further alienate the people in OH who might have been upset that he let his name run? Not that he doesn't love OH, but I'm sure he was greatly anticipating the possibility of Springfield.

A minister in my district was convinced he was going to to be voted in to a new position at GC and his name in fact was up for election. But he did not receive the vote. It was well known among anybody who knows anything on the inside loop of our district that before GC that he and his wife couldn't want to get out of here and move to Springfield fast enough. I'm sure they might have even already had a box or two packed, they were anticipating it so much. He wasn't voted in, and what did they say afterwards to people in the district? "We're just so grateful to the Lord that we don't have to move. We are relieved and are just so thankful the vote went the way it did."

The truth is, everyone who is close to them knows, they weren't happy, they were devastated. They wanted desperately to move. But what were they supposed to say?

Of course Doug had to say something and he did what all of us have been taught to do - concede graciously.; January 22, 2008 2:34 PM
Abe said...: Come on GPW...even you would have to admit that there are politics involved on the local, district and national levels. I"m sure that there may just be some politics involved in some way in your church. You did just have an "election" and I'm sure that some of your folks talked abut it together and they all voted...politics. That's not outrageous to believe that he or any number of people would make that statement. Let's not be so hyper-sensitive.; January 22, 2008 2:36 PM
Go Blue said...: With coach Rodriquez taking over in Ann Arbor it's a good time to get out of Ohio.; January 22, 2008 2:40 PM
George P. Wood said...: Anonymous:

I agree. There's a political angle in every election to church leadership. I guess I wrongly infered that you thought this was somehow wrong or underhanded. If politics touches everything we do, and if it's as benign as your new post seems to suggest, then why bring it up at all?

But since you do bring it up, you seem to suggest that there is something wrong or underhanded with the elections of Palmer and Clay. If that is in fact the case, I want you to be very clear on what precisely was wrong or underhanded. That's all.

George; January 22, 2008 2:46 PM
George P. Wood said...: Sorry, Abe! I confused your most recent post with Anonymous's previous post. My bad. Please re-interpret the wording of my post accordingly. If, as you suggest, politics is omnipresent, it is benign. But Anonymous seems to imply that the presence of politics in the election of church leader's is sinister. I would like to hear from him what he thinks is sinister in this particular case. To be even more specific, does he think Palmer and Clay were qualified for their posts? If not, why not?; January 22, 2008 2:48 PM
jeff e said...: i met doug when i was a senior in high school and he was a rookie yp in cincinnati. the truth is doug has always used connections well. but connections only get you the opportunity. ive watched doug take countless opportunities and he hits a home runs every time. i could be jealous or cynical or i can choose to get behind him and cheer on a champion. way to go dougger!; January 22, 2008 2:49 PM
Diddy said...: Alright...everybody has had their say. Now that the dust has settled...let us continue to pray for our national leadership. Politics is apart of every institution on the face of the planet...from the Vatican to the local restaurant. It is how the world works...why are we so surprised?

We need to be faithful to continue to pray for our leadership. God doesn't give us any wiggle room there...

And..."Beaty"...you dont need to praise anyone for their insights or comments. What are you trying to get elected to?; January 22, 2008 2:53 PM
Abe said...: GPW...no problem. Let me ask you. Is it ok for some of us to actually be able to disagree with this and have some concerns without being sinister? The point of some of our concerns is exactly what has happened on here. Distractions...members of the Ohio district feeling cheated...feeling nothing has changed in Springfield. Some may actually know John or Doug better than others and may have legitimate concerns based on their understanding of them. That's not sinister. It's disturbing that some take any questions or disagreement as ungodly or not supporting leadership. If we don't want things this way then we should change the governmental set-up of the AG. But we have a politial set-up in our government of the AG and as long as we have that we are going to have these kinds of discussions and disagreements.

I agree that some have gone over the top in their verbage. At the same time some have been overly sensitive and have over reacted back. I don't judge anyone on here whether anonymous or not because I think I can learn from everyone.; January 22, 2008 2:56 PM
George P. Wood said...: Abe:

"Is it ok for some of us to actually be able to disagree with this and have some concerns without being sinister?"

Yes, of course!

Unfortunately, the two dominant criticisms of Doug Clay's election have been that it was nepotistic and political. Would you agree with me that these two criticisms seem to imply something sinister, underhanded, or wrong about Clay's election?

That's why I responded so strongly to people who voiced these criticisms (too strongly and with too much anger, in several instances, for which I have apologized).

George; January 22, 2008 3:10 PM
Abe said...: GPW - I disagree that if I say something is political that I'm saying that it is sinister too. Again...it is a political system where a lot of different sides of politics get played. Politics get played in Springfield brother. I've lived there and I've experienced it there and was just there in the last few months and saw some of it in action. Nothing anyone can say will convince me otherwise because I have experienced it.

Why is it so hard for us to admit that politics are involved in the GC? Why is it so hard to admit that nepotism does happen at headquarters? I'm not saying it's bad or good just that it happens. When people get overly sensitive and overly emotional in defense of something that usually (not always) tells me that something about the argument has hit home. Our system calls for us to question decisions and yet when we do it is labled as sinister, and cynical and ungodly. No...it is our system. We give time for discussion on the floor at GC, DC, in our churches to "question" that which is before us.

I personally think our church government needs to be changed and that is a good discussion for on here. I think we set ourselves up for this kind of misunderstanding and emotional reactions. I don't see a whole lot of democracy in the Scriptures and yet that is exactly how we run everything and thus the problems we face.; January 22, 2008 3:22 PM
Abe said...: One more thing. When the GP's come togehter it is political. When the EP's come together it is political. People lobby them about positions and decisions before they ever get there and that is politics friends.; January 22, 2008 3:29 PM
George P. Wood said...: Abe:

You and I seem to be talking at cross-purposes. I agree with you that there is a lot of politics in the AG. But politics can be understand in at least two senses.

Politics is, first of all, the ordering of our common life together. In that sense, politics is both omnipresent and benign. We cannot avoid politics, because we cannot avoid discussing and acting on how we ought to live together. And, since we cannot avoid it, it is benign.

But politics is also, second, an activity by means of which certain people advance themselves and/or their interests irrespective of merit. Call it politics or influence peddling or horse trading or what have you, but politics in this second sense is not benign; it is sinister.

Now, back to our discussion. The election of Doug Clay was political in the first sense of the term. It was a decision made by the appropriate body acting in accord with pre-established rules regarding the leadership of our movement. It was, in other words, a decision regarding the ordering of the common life of our fellowship.

What many have suggested on this blog, or at least strongly implied, is that the decision was political in the second sense. For them, Clay's election was sinister on its face precisely because it was motivated by nepotism or cronyism or some other ism. They have argued, implied, or insinuated that Clay was elected to his position on the basis of some interest other than merit.

When you see, then, that one should be able to dissent from the decision to elect Clay without having their motives challenged, I agree with you, as long as you're talking about the first sense of politics. The ordering of our life together requires judgment calls. Those judgment calls typically revolve around issues of merit. Was Doug Clay the only qualified candidate for the job? Was he a well-qualified candidate? Yes. You can think he was qualified for the job without thinking that he was the best choice. That's the kind of dissent I think is reasonable.

But I'm not sure that's the kind of dissent that has been voiced on this blog. They have dissented from his election because they think he was elected for political considerations, in the second sense of politics. To me, this necessarily implies that they ascribe sinister, underhanded, motives to his selection. Else why mention nepotism and cronyism? Else why suggest, as one recent Anonymous post did, that Clay is a ladder climber?

I hope these distinctions help focus the discussion a bit more narrowly. I also hope they help explain what kind of dissent I think is legitimate in a church, and what kind is not.

One final thought: You mentioned that we don't find democracy mentioned much in Scripture. That's true. Then again, we don't find anonymous criticism of leaders in Scripture either.

George; January 22, 2008 3:54 PM
Marvin J. Miller said...: In our contemporary culture, "politics" has a bad name. Perhaps we should say "negotiated social dynamic construction" or something like that. Politics is a necessary part of governance. As long as it stays above board, there is nothing wrong with politcs, or "playing the game" It's done by everybody in every situation -- probably even our marriages or other social relationships, if we want to scrutinize ourselves that far.

"Nepotism" however it is defined, is actually the socially accepted norm for many cultures for most of history. Where one calls out croynism, another percieves a well functioning team dynamic. Nowhere are these constructs inherently evil.

We bring those perspectives with us to the table. But lets be realistic -- One that has excelled in district offices should be someone that "moves up the ladder." Why should we deny the entire movement what Ohio covets?

Esther was perfectly content being the beauty queen of her borough -- but God's plans would not have been executed (and her fellowship would have been) unless she had been promoted, right?

I thought about running for governor against AH-nold several years ago, because all we needed was 50 friends to put us on the ballot in the Great California Recall. Would I vote for someone like that? Absolutely not. I want someone who has proven him/herself.

Perhaps this whole flap has taught us more about ourselves than we think.
1) We are not a trusting generation. We don't trust our leaders, and then we wonder why our congregations question us. God, forgive us.
2) We are a process generation. Dr. Wood's post clarified most issues and should have set to rest most concerns. We want to know the hows, more than just the outcomes. God, guide us.
3) We are a jealous generation. Why do we "care" if someone made it to the "cushier" job before we did? God, let us be jealous for lost souls instead.

Marvin J. Miller
mjmiller@palmviewchristian.org; January 22, 2008 4:04 PM
Anonymous said...: We don't find anonymous criticism forbidden in the Bible either now do we?; January 22, 2008 4:37 PM
Abe said...: Thanks George. I've enjoyed dialoguing with you and congrats on your vote. I've been through a few of those. STRESSFUL!! I know not all of the discussino on this subject has been productive but it definately has been a lightning rod discussion and one that some good has come out of as well. Blessings my brother.; January 22, 2008 4:38 PM
Abe said...: Hey Marvin. I for one don't think it is a cushy job. Just look at this blog for proof of that:); January 22, 2008 4:40 PM
George P. Wood said...: Anonymous:

LOL!

No, we don't find anonymous criticism forbidden in Scripture. Then again, 1 Timothy 5:19 says we shouldn't consider a charge against an elder without two or three witnesses. One assumes those witnesses would have to give their names at some point.

Abe:

I've enjoyed the conversation too. For me, debate helps clarify terms and may even sharpen the points of disagreement. It doesn't not necessarily settle issues. In the case of Brother Clay, I get the feeling that many of us will have to agree to disagree, although I hope we can all find honorable reasons to disagree.

George; January 22, 2008 4:51 PM
Marvin J. Miller said...: Hi Abe-

I'm not quite sure there really is such a thing as a "cushy" job. Even Bill Gates gets pied in the face... Although, someone has to test the pillows out at the Lazy-Boy factory...

When I was little, I always wanted to be a food taster, until someone pointed out that their #1 cause of death is food poisoning. I guess if you love what you do, be prepared to die for it.

Now, I'll spend the next five minutes trying to figure out how to log in right so I don't post anonymously...

-- Marvin
mjmiller@palmviewchristian.org; January 22, 2008 5:06 PM
Anonymous said...: It has been a long time since I have posted on this blog and I wanted to comment much earlier today, but pastoral duties called...

I appreciate Dr. Wood’s comments and insights so very much!

Perhaps I have become a bit skewered after nearly 30 years of ministry in the A/G. But over and over I have observed these situations at the district and national level where an office holder resigns in mid-term. Then as the by-laws prescribe, an appointment is made. Once the term of office is expired the person is then voted on and retained....partly because nobody wants to vote against a person who has left another ministry position and moved his family unless he is doing a horrible job. This has helped to create an environment of cynicism with many who feel it is just good old boy church politics as usual.

Funny thing...all along I was predicting that Brother Bridges would retire in mid stream in order for the new administration to appoint who they wanted to groom for the future...a fast track up the ladder for the next GS. And as one who really likes Doug Clay, I wish him well, but wonder if this approach will hurt him in the long run?

Being from Ohio, I am not thrilled that Doug is leaving. Doug brought some positive changes, but his flavor has not had enough time to permeate the Ohio District. I see this as being similar to a very short-term pastorate. Also, I am not looking forward to the "negotiated social dynamic construction" that will be going on over the next 4 months for the same handful of names to be placed on the board at the ODC.

Still not trusting, so I am posting as anonymous.; January 22, 2008 5:15 PM
Anonymous said...: Marvin,

I couldn't agree more with your first comment:

1) We are not a trusting generation. We don't trust our leaders, and then we wonder why our congregations question us. God, forgive us.

I think this could be a post all unto itself. It has come up multiple times in various posts. The younger generations do not trust their leaders. So much corruption has gone on in politics, sports, government, church, business...you name it...they have failed.

How can we overcome this?

I dont think many people realize just how many people this actually does affect...I HAVE READ TOO MANY HEADLINES. It shines through every comment i have read on here.

How can we overcome past leadership failures that have left a postmodern generation burnt out by "Christian leaders?"; January 22, 2008 5:24 PM
revmla said...: Some believe nepotism is simply someone being hired who is related to another person within a company/leadership team. I was taught otherwise - that the true definition of nepotism is not simply when someone related is hired, but when someone related is hired who does not possess the proper skills required to do the job, and is simply there because of who they are related to.

I have not yet heard anyone say that Doug Clay does not possess the necessary leadership skills for the job.; January 22, 2008 5:28 PM
Oxford American Dictionary said...: nepotism |ˈnepəˌtizəm|
noun

the practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, esp. by giving them jobs.

DERIVATIVES
nepotist noun
nepotistic |ˌnepəˈtistik| adjective

ORIGIN mid 17th cent.: from French népotisme, from Italian nepotismo, from nipote ‘nephew’ (with reference to privileges bestowed on the “nephews” of popes, who were in many cases their illegitimate sons).

Thesaurus
nepotism
noun

hiring my daughter was not nepotism—it was just good business favoritism, preferential treatment, the old boy network, looking after one's own, bias, partiality, partisanship. antonym impartiality.; January 22, 2008 6:03 PM
Lane Douglas said...: I think the thing that still has me confused after reading the comments over and over again regarding "nepotism" is that no one has yet explained how a set of "brother-in-laws" helps George Wood out.

Had the appointment been George's son, I might be prone to, at least, read the comments with consideration. (No harm intended, GPW.) But neither of these two individuals (John or Doug) are related to George Wood. So please explain to me how this, in any way, helps him?

In order for that to be the case, you would have to assume that (A) George has one of the brothers in his pocket who will do what he says and, then (B) that this brother can then use family ties to jade the other brother. In other words... you have to assume that three of the GP are willing to intentionally go against ethics and ignore what would certainly bring conviction by the Holy Spirit.

Are we really willing to allow our skepticism to take us that far? I can totally believe that there are the few that rise into leadership based on un-ethical maneuverings. But I don't think I can truthfully fathom that there is that large of a cover-up taking place here. To enter that camp, I would have to also surmise that we never did land on the moon.; January 22, 2008 6:14 PM
revmla said...: Another definition from Wikipedia: "Nepotism is the showing of favoritism toward relatives, based upon that relationship, rather than on an objective evaluation of ability or suitability. For instance, offering employment to a relative, despite the fact that there are others who are better qualified and willing to perform the job, would be considered nepotism."

No one has said yet that Doug is not able or suitable, nor that there are others BETTER qualified. Simply that he is related. According to this particular definiton of nepotism which can be found in several places, this would not count as nepotism, however it is still politics, which also seems to be uncontested by those posting no matter what side they come down on with the issue.; January 22, 2008 6:15 PM
Anonymous said...: I think Lane made the point well.

George is not related to Doug. Period.; January 22, 2008 6:21 PM
Phil Anderson said...: I am amazed at the comments about Doug from those who obviously don't know him very well. I have been blessed to personally know Doug for nearly 20 years. In fact, my wife was his secretary while he served as our DYD in Ohio. I was a youth pastor at that time as well.

I have seen Doug minister behind a pulpit and I have ridden shotgun in his car as we took a long trip from Columbus to another part of our state. I am thrilled to say he is the same man privately as he is publicly and we have a great man of integrity as our new Treasurer.

I can also tell you, then, from a personal stand-point, that Doug does not pursue promotion and positions...promotion and positions seem to have always pursued Doug. Simply put, God has had His hand on Doug in some amazing levels of leadership. In fact, I believe if you were to personify the gift of leadership, you could do so in Doug.

This was a major decision for Doug to make...which he wrestled with...but, was confirmed in a number of distinct and very clear ways for him. I do not believe it was an easy decision to make and to minimize his election in the way many have here have done or to suggest that this is "just another rung" for Doug is irresponsible and ignorant.

I will REALLY miss Doug and, selfishly, don't want him to leave. But, Ohio's loss is most definitely our national fellowship's gain. I am very proud of and happy for him.; January 22, 2008 7:20 PM
Dave Kidd said...: I'm from Ohio. I'm credentialed with the A/G as of last May. I'm not pastoring yet, At times I've felt like I'm still on the outside looking in. Some may even say that I'm not qualified to post here.

Late last year we had a sectional prayer meeting with PASTOR Clay. PASTOR Clay and I had never talked, we did shake hands once prior to that meeting.

Pastor Clay is a busy man, but at that meeting he knew me, he knew my name, he knew my wife's name, he knew about the fledgling marriage ministry God has called us to. Sure, he (may) have brushed up on some names and faces via a database before the meeting. Even if he did, he took the time to do that because he cares, he believes in the ministry of every pastor in the Ohio District,and he wanted to invest into us his support.

Say what ever you want, everyone's entitled. For me, PASTOR Clay is about souls for Christ. It's about God's gift of vision and passion. It's about investing himself in the Ohio District and now on the national level.

I believe God noticed, PASTOR Clay was faithful in the smaller things and now God has entrusted to him a larger thing.

Blessings to You Pastor Clay and may God continue to bless the A/G.; January 22, 2008 8:07 PM
Marvin J. Miller said...: Hey Dave--

Qualified to Post?
1) From Ohio -- CHECK
2) Met Doug Clay -- CHECK
3) Like the Newsboys -- CHECK
4) Led someone to Christ yesterday - CHECK
5) Older than me -- CHECK

Yeah, I think you're qualifed.

-- Marvin Miller
mjmiller@palmviewchristian.org; January 22, 2008 8:36 PM
Willie said...: Phil...I've known Doug for over 20 years as well and know him completely opposite from you and a ladder climber and politician for sure.; January 22, 2008 10:12 PM
Lane Douglas said...: Willie (and those along this line of thought)...

Can I ask you to check yourself in the accusations you are making? If you have an opinion about Doug's motivations for accepting an appointment, that's fine. Just be sure to recognize that they are just that, your opinion. And state your case in just that manner.

Unless of course you would like to challenge Scripture which declares that you do not have the divine insight to know what is in Doug's heart. Regardless of whether you have known him for 20 years or not, the last I checked God's Word, only He and Doug are privy to that information.; January 22, 2008 10:32 PM
Anonymous said...: so Lane it is ok for someone to say they have known him for 20 years and applaud his motives without your caution but not someone to share a different perspective? How typical; January 22, 2008 10:46 PM
Ai-chi-yaya said...: Would most people have thought ANYTHING negative about Doug Clay's election if the first comment here wasn't that he was related to John Palmer?

I HIGHLY doubt there was any "Master Plan" between John and Doug; like, oooh, someday we'll get to work together with so much POWER! It just doesn't seem likely, and if time tells differently, then we'll all see that and act (vote, speak) accordingly, but instead, why can't we give them the benefit of the doubt? Especially, when no track record of either of theirs seems to suggest that they have been in "cahoots" to get their own joint agenda across.

Let's honestly pray for them and for the whole team rather than immediately condemning them and their choices. I think that the A/G is coming into a new day in a good way, and if anything, let's dialogue about how to SUPPORT these people in their roles. Honestly, I don't think that these jobs sound all that "glamorous." It sounds like a lot of instant criticism and griping.

I'm not trying to display a lack of compassion with those who are crying "injustice" here. I really have seen things that I've been stunned and truly outraged by in ministry and in watching other leaders. I have wanted to turn in my card at times :) but I am marching on. Clay and Palmer don't seem to be pushing their own "empires" forward rather than God's Kingdom.

If you are afraid of nepotism completely overtaking the A/G, why don't you pray and seek to be different and not guilty of shameless self-promotion. If you're suspicious of others, seek to be wise and discerning- as well as restorative, supportive and an encouraging example yourself.

Blessings, all!!!; January 22, 2008 11:47 PM
Danny "dj" Morales said...: AG Wars the Saga:

Episode I
The Phantom Menace

Midichlorians manage to impregnate the she-wolf mother of Doug Clay to reincarnate the Dark Lord of the Sith Thomas Zimmerman without the Senate of the Republic (i.e. the General Council) knowing.

Episode II
Attack of the Clones

Anonymous aliens abduct people's motives, drop people's names like body parts (e.g. Beth Grant), and come to show us that Doug Clay's election is really an elaborate virtual Matrix scheme. Who are they and do they come in peace?

Episode III
Revenge of the Sith

George O Wood, Alton Garrison, Doug Palmer and Zollie Smith manage to set up Doug Clay as the next Gen Sup via the Treasury by knocking off Count James Bridges without the Ashcroft Bothan Spy ring knowing.

Episode IV
A New Hope?

Doug Clay manages to shape-shift his roles as a young mentoring hero by day and a maniacal political wookie by night.

Episode V
The Empire Strikes Back

George O Wood manages to be the nepotistic biological father Doug Clay never knew. "Obi Wan never told you what happened to your father..."

Episode VI
Return of the Jedi

Doug Clay manages to be a political Jedi Master without running for the office he is ultimately elected to and before finishing his leadership school in Degobohio. The saga ends as the Death Star (aka Springfield HQ) explodes.

Coincidences?

I think not.

And who said Tom Cruise and Scientologists made for good reading? This A/G stuff reads better than L. Ron Hubbard and George Lucas.; January 23, 2008 2:17 AM
Lane Douglas said...: Anonymous (10:46)...

From your post, I gather that you are charging me with two wrongdoings:

1. Having a double standard by not taking to task those who praise Doug Clay, and...

2. Displaying a typical "company-boy" persona in doing so.

Let me respond in reverse fashion.

1. As to my being "typical," ... consider my track record first. Several years back I stood, alone, in front of the entire GP and personally questioned Tom Trask on not allowing the FT's to be open for discussion. I further advocated that we re-word FT8. He was angry with me, but I stood my ground regardless of any reciprocity I might encounter.

Additionally, I had the opportunity to spend several hours earlier this year with Dr. Wood one on one. We talked openly and I felt the freedom to question our poor theological training, the arrogance and pride in leadership, as well as my uncertainty about my future in the AG. So... you'll forgive me for being a bit cynical when a person of anonymity charges me with "typical" behavior.

2. As to the double standard, answer me this: Why, in the Scriptures, does it call for 2 to 3 witnesses in bringing a charge against an elder, yet not call for the same when bringing the elder praise? Would you charge God with a double standard as well?

Willie was not bringing a different perspective, he was making an accusation against Doug's character. Additionally, I didn't tell him he couldn't do that, only that he should frame his words differently so as to avoid slander.

Would love your response, especially to # 2 above.; January 23, 2008 4:53 AM
Phil Anderson said...: Willie...it's obvious you don't know Doug as well as you think you do. I hope you get the chance to do so someday. Your opinion of him will change.

Again, it disappoints me to see some of the comments that I have seen here. I am even more disappointed by those who are in Ohio who are throwing this man under the bus. Why in the world would we use a forum like this to judge a man's character or motivation? How can so many people possibly 'know' what is in a man's heart? Terms like "ladder-climber" and "politician" are ridiculous.

Doug is a unique and gifted leader and administrator. God has led Doug to use those giftings in such a way that he has led a District and National Youth Departmet. God used him to turn a church around that came out of a VERY hurtful situation. He led Doug to do some amazing things with the Ohio District and now his influence will be on the national level. This is a VERY exciting time for our movement! Rarely will you see a leader like Doug and one should consider themselves blessed to be placed under his guidance, influence and leadership.

Dr Wood has made a very wise choice. We should pray for Doug as he makes this transition. And our Ohio ministers should also be praying hard for our great District. I know I am.; January 23, 2008 6:53 AM
Willie said...: Thanks Phil. I would say that maybe you don't know Doug as well as you think you do. We will have to agree to disagree on this one but I stand by my opinion. At the end of the day it does not really matter. Life will go on...the sun will still rise and how I and my church minister will not be affected one bit by this appointment. This is the greatest movement on the planet in my opinion even with it's challenges. This blog however shows that the challenges may be bigger than any of us want to admit.; January 23, 2008 7:10 AM
Phil Anderson said...: Willie...let's just agree to disagree and both stand by our opinions. I think we'll both make it to Heaven still. ;-)

There are definitely challenges 'out there' and in our movement. And I agree with you that this is "the greatest movement on the planet." I am confident that our prayers for our leadership and for each other will create great victories as we all face whatever is before us.; January 23, 2008 7:21 AM
Anonymous said...: Ai-chi-yaya said...
Would most people have thought ANYTHING negative about Doug Clay's election if the first comment here wasn't that he was related to John Palmer?

I HIGHLY doubt there was any "Master Plan" between John and Doug;

The fact of the matter is that is EXACTLY WHAT DID HAPPEN at General Council. Doug had the votes to be nominated for General Secretary (A skill set similar to the General Treasurers) and stayed out of the mix so John Palmer would have a "better shot." For a time in the General Presbytery session John Palmer was the only name they had to submit for the General Secretary. But after a mulitiude of names had gotten play for Assistant Superintendent the leadership wisely knew this would look terrible, to submit only one name to the General Council. So two other names were garnered/submitted.

A DS from the midwest just recently referenced this whole fiasco in one of his messages at one of his district churches. He shared how disappointed he was in the political rangling that took place for that position. This was all before the Clay appointment. I would love to hear his message this Sunday!
The whole point that people on this side of the issue are trying to make is: It wasn't nepotism that got Doug the job, but you just don't make that appointment so accusations can't be made down the road. Especially after the General Secretary's electioin. You have to admit, by the postings on this blog, and what others are saying across the nation, there is a great deal of bewilderment. It would have been interesting if this vote would have had to go to the General Presbytery. We'll never know, but I highly doubt it would have ever flew.; January 23, 2008 7:40 AM
wondering said...: okay, so being careful to avoid slander here...

Just a question. What would it be considered if a person declared their intentions to quite a number of people when they were in Bible College, (and not kidding) "Just watch. One day I'm going to be the General Superintendent of the A/G..."

Would that just be --

immaturity, naivety, arrogance, ambition, mental imbalance, or could it be classified as early indications of a tendency toward a political or ladder climbing focus?

Just curious.; January 23, 2008 7:41 AM
Beaty said...: Diddy - I don't need to get elected to anything, I already have a job. All I was trying to do is defend someone I think had been wronged by cowards...yes, cowards. And you don't need quotation marks around Beaty, its my last name.

I do think this has all gotten quite out of hand. If everyone feels so strongly about this than get your friends together and elect someone different at General Council next year. Yes I understand the dynamics of ousting an incumbent is difficult, but that is the system we have, and a system by the way I would not feel I was too far out on a limb by saying you all love and cherish.

On another note, I will be speaking at SAGU on Monday, and then again at the District Mens, CE, and Youth Director's National conferences next week. So if any of you happen to be there, come introduce yourself. I would love to meet you.

Ryan Beaty; January 23, 2008 7:47 AM
Brad said...: Anonymous 7:40...that sounds pretty sinister and political:) It's funny all the defensiveness about politics when it is BLATANT throughout the AG. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if John Ashcroft did in fact make that statement and since his dad worked at headquarters for a number of years he would know. Listen....this appointment was very political from GC on through. Bulletin...nothing we can do about it now but something can be done about it later. We have a "no relatives" policy at this church where no relative of a staff member can serve on the board and it is such a blessing and alleviates any discussion like this. Now I understand if we did away with multiple relative working at Headquarters that we would lose half of our staff there but someone really should put a motion on the floor for the next GC to prevent this from happening again. It's just wisdom and avoids this troubling appearance we are discussing now.; January 23, 2008 7:49 AM
George P. Wood said...: Anonymous January 23, 2008 7:40 AM:

I'd like to know which midwestern DS you're talking about.

George; January 23, 2008 8:07 AM
Dave Kidd said...: RE: Wondering 1/23 -7:41AM

True God-given vision requires an outlet. I don't know what the Holy Spirit would be speaking to an individual in Bible College. I only know what he speaks on a step by step basis to this 40 yr-old SAGU student. How God speaks to me, is probably somewhat different from how God speaks to you, although I'm sure there would be similarities.

My point is, while it may have been a question of over-excitement, prematurity or immaturity, to have indicated that part of one's vision, when God's gives vision to one of his servants it becomes a very powerful, motivational force in one's life. The key is found in watching the fruits of that vision.

I can't see into the heart and mind of man to know what God is speaking to him/her. I must watch fruits, productive ministry and visible character.

There is a statement in the counseling world that says the best prediction of future behavior is past behavior. If that is truly the case, I feel that our fellowship will be truly blessed by the events of this past week.

Blessings!; January 23, 2008 8:19 AM
Brad said...: Does anyone dispute the scenario mentioned several times on here that Doug had the votes for Gen Sec and then stepped aside in favor of his bro-in-law? No one has ever said that it didn't happen so one is left to assume that it did. Just interested to know.; January 23, 2008 8:39 AM
Anonymous said...: this would be easily explained away however because he told his district that he didn't feel the secretary's job was a fit for him...; January 23, 2008 8:54 AM
Anonymous said...: Brad and others "Wondering"...
If you doubt that happened and the manuevering that was involved, let me quote a current General Presbyter: "That General Presbytery is the biggest good 'ole boy network anyone has ever seen." It happened, look what was stated to the Ohioans.; January 23, 2008 9:05 AM
Anonymous said...: As a Pastor one of the hardest things for me to work through is when people in my church display such a critical attitude about me personally or the direction that God has directed me and my leadership team to lead the church.

Almost without fail the people who do criticize the loudest are the ones who have struggled with limited success in their own lives or in this case ministries.

I for one am thankful that we have men like John and Doug that have been consistently successful and who display godly humility, integrity and have the gift of leadership are in a place that they can help us to move forward.

As one who did not vote for George O. Wood to become our GS I am so glad that God is the one who puts men into to leadership. Since GC I have been more optimistic about our fellowship and the more that Dr. Wood does the more impressed and thankful I am.

I am with you Dr. Wood LEAD ON!!; January 23, 2008 9:05 AM
A/G Guy with Sense! said...: I've been following this for a couple of days now, & came to the realization...THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT!!! Everyone on both sides have said their piece, the decision has been made, we will all see how it plays out. The best thing we can do is PRAY for our movement - it needs it! This "contorversy" (if i is one) is the LEAST of our worries! What about the fact that most of our churches are declining? What about the fact that we are loosing influence? Our issues are bigger than who is our General Treas.! I hope that all of this will end - it's not making anything better!!! 'Nuf said!; January 23, 2008 9:20 AM
Dave Kidd said...: A/G Guy...

Wise Words; January 23, 2008 9:29 AM
Dan said...: It seems some would have liked the position to go vacant rather than have an appointment. Post open, appointment made - would it have created an uproar if it had been an unqualified candidate no one knew?

Simple search with tools we all have available - NASB version here:

NT uses of "appoint" = 34
(some by God, some by man)

NT uses of "vote" = 1
(Acts 26:10 - read verse 10 & 11 and note the similar spirit in some of the postings?)

Begs the question of addressing our system - God gave some as Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers... and delegates, and candidates, and tellers, Huh? Let's talk about that system - I'd like to hear some alternative ideas.

Another tidbit - 1 Tim. 5:19 was already mentioned - and worthy of consideration. Root word for "witness" also gives us "martyr" -- someone willing to DIE for what they believe.

So, if you don't know how to do the "blog thing" (I'm just learning myself) - then just add your name to the post.

Anonymity = cowardice in my book.

What are you afraid of? That you might not get the special favor that you accuse others of receiving if you sign your name. That sounds like hypocrisy to me.

Quote I once read - sorry I don't know the source, someone else may help here:
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about things, great minds speak of ideas."

Love the free exchange - but drive responsibly - sign your name.

Mine is Dan Lumadue and I'm not running for anything.; January 23, 2008 9:40 AM
Phil Anderson said...: Brad's post: "Does anyone dispute the scenario mentioned several times on here that Doug had the votes for Gen Sec and then stepped aside in favor of his bro-in-law? No one has ever said that it didn't happen so one is left to assume that it did. Just interested to know."

I would dispute it. In my conversations with Doug and in his dealings with those in leadership here in Ohio, I can tell you that "John Palmer" never came up as a reason for Doug's stepping aside from being nominated. Yes, John Palmer {and two other individuals, by the way} were put on the ballot. But, I would say Doug had very little to do with that...aside from the fact that, by virtue of his position in Ohio, he was among the GP at the time. John Palmer doesn't need Doug Clay's help to land a job. That's a bit presumptuous.

Plain and simple, in August, I don't believe Doug felt the GenSec position was within his skill set and he declined a nomination to that position. Let me also say that, without the apparent changes in the job description of GenTreas, I believe this position would not fit his skill set either. But, Bro Wood has stated what he is looking for and that Doug will do different things than has been done historically from the GenTreas' office. I believe Doug will thrive in that role.

Let's all stop assuming we all know what "went on" in creating the ballot {I certainly don't know it all} for Gen Sec in August. Let's be careful not to attack or demean someone's character or question the motives of a brother in Christ. Let's just move on and intercede for our leaders. These are exciting times.; January 23, 2008 9:40 AM
Brad, Jim, Bill or I could be Ted said...: Thanks Phil but I want to hear from someone actually in the room. You have no basis to dispute it factually. Your conversations with Doug tell you one thing and another's conversation with someone else says another. It would be nice to hear on the record from Bro Wood or some GP or EP on this.

Dan, there were no rules laid down from the beginning of this blog on requirements for postings. Actually the creators of this blog had to allow and did so for anonymous posts. People can post anonymously all they want and it doesn't make them evil or hypocritical or cowardly just because you say it does. If someone posts something that you agree with you won't consider them cowardly now will you? Quit being so judgemental and try to learn from all the posts.; January 23, 2008 9:52 AM
Phil Anderson said...: "Thanks Phil but I want to hear from someone actually in the room..."

Why?

I will say that hearing from people who WEREN'T in the room and reading their posts as though they were doesn't really contribute to this discussion. All I can convey is what I know. I just wish others would do the same.; January 23, 2008 10:05 AM
Anonymous said...: The fact is Phil you DON'T KNOW. It is not factual.; January 23, 2008 10:09 AM
Anonymous said...: does everybody know that years ago John Palmer hired Doug Clay to be his youth pastor in Des Moines?; January 23, 2008 10:10 AM
Anonymous said...: Yea that didn't work out so well in Des Moines and being my church I know that factually.; January 23, 2008 10:12 AM
Phil Anderson said...: All I know is from communications I have had with Doug...either personally or publicly. I guess, for me, that is all I need.; January 23, 2008 10:17 AM
Anonymous said...: And others have said something completely different Phil that I have confidence in; January 23, 2008 10:23 AM
Anonymous said...: I have followed this blog since July.....So forgive me for jumping in to the discussion so late.

OK! Enough of the "he said, she said stuff! All the comments questioning the character of Doug and our other leaders have turned me off! I am not naive about back room wrangling but, who was or was not in the room is not going to change anything at this time. Like him or dislike him, Doug is a tremendously gifted leader. I have pastored in Ohio for nearly 19 years and my only complaint is that I wish we had a few more years of Doug’s leadership in our District.

Concerning the earlier comments about something that MAY have been said in college, give me a break! I, for one, remember a lot of things I said while a student at one of our A/G Bible colleges and later while at the AGTS that I hope are not remembered or held against me. In Genesis Joseph said some things that his brothers thought were arrogant, but were actually things God showed him about his future. We celebrate ambition in athletics, business, science and every other field. We tell young people to dream big. At 51 I am no longer young, but I still have a dream for the church I pastor, for my community and for my family. So what if a young man had a dream and came off as brash?

I understand the questions about Doug possibly changing his mind after saying that he didn’t feel GS suited his skill-set, but now the GT position fits. People can & do change their minds and often God is in it. I have done so a few times in my own life because the Lord spoke to my heart. The question for me then was do I follow the Lord or shrink back because someone might criticize? Only Doug and the Lord know what is in Doug’s heart. So what if Doug & John are related? Each can stand on their own merit and did not need the other to get them a job.

Most of us agree that if James Bridges (and that is still an if in my mind because I do not personally know him) had a hint that he wanted to step down so close to a GC he should have left his intentions be known and it should have been voted on at GC and this wouldn’t look so out of sorts. And the accusation about “the good ‘ole boy network” can be thrown at just about any group, church or denomination.

One more thing.....I am sure the Ohio District can use everyone’s prayers for our selection of a new DS and for the A/G as a whole since we have many weightier issues facing us.

Don Matolyak
Mt. Vernon, OH; January 23, 2008 10:35 AM
Dan said...: Dear "Brad, Jim, Bill or I could be Ted"

I understand that the format is such - in fact, Wikipedia has an interesting article on anonymity - pros and cons. Understood. Especially their comments on "internet trolls"...

But it seems you have judged me as well - and wrongly. I would also encourage others who agree with me to sign their name, and consider it to be courageous to do so.

A strong opinion on this does not mean I am not learning - a fact for which you have judged me because I disagree with you :-)

Bigger picture here - we're talking about spiritual leadership and the issues that surround the offices and the men. Scripture usage should not be used as a "disqualifier" - and I'm still looking for the one that gives a spiritual right to judge someone, criticize them publicly, and to not attach your name to it. But I do find injunctions to take a stand and stick with it.

So, I'll pass on future discussions of anonymity since it probably is a circular argument - especially when you won't sign your name.

What I do ask is this -- Do admonitions to civility and honor apply to the blogosphere - or are we allowed to do and say what we want and then smile and preach on Sunday - expecting God to bless it? Is there a "connectedness" to private life and public ministry?

Back to the point - do we have PROCESSES that need changed (see my previous post) - and is that more worthy of discussion than "he said, she said"?; January 23, 2008 10:54 AM
Abe said...: I'm in favor of discussing our processes and church government and possible changes. Long overdo.; January 23, 2008 10:58 AM
Ken DeChant said...: Okay, it's time for one of our esteemed moderators to add a new post... This thread has been a bit exhausting.

I agree with an earlier comment that made a few suggestions for new posts:

1. What should be the role of the General Council--what do you want/need/expect from the GC?
2. Same for the District Council.
3. What are some resolution ideas for internet voting at sGeneral Councils?
4. Any suggestions to improve the format of General Councils? Anyway to take care of the voting on whether BGMC is going to be "a" or "the" Children's arm of DFM or WM or whatever we changed the name to at some past General Council?
5. We've had some useful discussions regarding tongues being the IPE, what about a post that deals with our FTs regarding end times?

Can we PLEASE move on?; January 23, 2008 11:17 AM
Dean said...: Ok...Ken is exhausted so let's please move on for him:); January 23, 2008 11:33 AM
Anonymous said...: All you conspiracy theory people how about this:

One blogger said that Dr. Wood is a transitional leader (basically filling T. Trask's last two years) and that Doug Clay was brought to Springfield by Dr. Wood to be groomed to be the next GS in 09. Another blog entry by Dr. Wood himself said Doug does not necessarily need the skill base but will serve other national purposes "...national leadership beyond the day to day..." and "...wider berth of ministry...". A third blog entry focused on Doug's brief tenure in numerous locations/positons over the past two decades. Interesting...this would be consistent with the historical overview that was provided regarding Doug's employment history.

Food for thought. What a meal!; January 23, 2008 12:03 PM
Anonymous said...: What is the big deal about working next to your family members?

Sincerely,
The Kennedys
Prince Charles
Richard Roberts
Dale Earnhardt, Jr.; January 23, 2008 12:08 PM
Anonymous said...: For the Dan Lumadene and all others who are barking at the anonymous posters...

There are some of us who DO love this Fellowship and who are NOT cowards...and even though Dr. Wood has pushed for open dialog and that there would be no reprisals from HIM...the AG political correct police ARE out here and watching the blog, and everything else they can watch and they do and WILL bring swift retribution to those who don't tow the "party line"...

IMHO the reason for the uproar is on this very blog sometime after GC people were already pushing John Palmer and Doug Clay's names for the next GS...

You can't help but wonder about the good ole boys club...; January 23, 2008 12:20 PM
Hillbillyboy said...: Now we know what gets the gander up the quickest...tongues as the evidence and good old boy politics and such. That's the way I see it here in Kentucky. And by the way, why could'nt one of our preacher boy's here from the Hills been elected to count the beans? I mean, after all we still wear white shoes and white belts with our suspenders!; January 23, 2008 12:31 PM
Anonymous said...: I have a relative working in one of the larger Districts in our fellowship who assures me that this blog get's monitored daily in their office. No one can convince me that the days of reprisal in the AG are over with..no way.; January 23, 2008 1:37 PM
Anonymous said...: No matter what anyone wants to say about conspiracy theories I think it is also interesting that with the exception of one post on singleness by Brad Leach, this has basically become a blog led by GPW. (Not that I have any issue with GPW - what I know of him - think he's a great guy.) My point is - I think there is a reason the other (and original) blog hosts all of a sudden disappeared off the scenes. It's beyond just being busy with pastoral matters. All of us on here have a ton of ministry stuff to deal with even if we do get things off of sermoncentral.com. Be real. Whether or not somebody higher up talked to them about the blog or asked them to change something, for some reason they have all stepped away and you just can't help but wonder.

Not saying they have an obligation to post...

Not saying they are slacking...

Not being critical of them in any way...

Just saying I think there is a deeper reason we have not heard from anyone to speak of other than GPW in a very long time.

You better believe this blog is monitored.; January 23, 2008 1:46 PM
Anonymous said...: You can't be serious!; January 23, 2008 1:50 PM
defender said...: I havent posted too much on here...but since it keeps coming up....ill put up the basic argument i posted from an earlier discussion. There are valid reasons people do not post with their real names.

I agree with anyone 100% about "anonymous" posts that seek to slander or get nasty. While I disagree with them when they cross the line.anonymity is the only way we can have true honesty from everyone.

In relation to writing pseudo-anonymously -

First, for myself, since i am a naturally politically oriented person, i have to consistently check my own motives in why i am doing or writing things. You may not struggle with this as much as i do. But i do not want ONE MORE filter i have to work through in thinking through these issues. My own filter - the one that says, "my name - that sounds very good...George O. Wood will like that!!" - would constantly be poking at me. Again, i am not trying to imply that anyone else struggles with that...but i do. Pseudo-anonymity does not allow me the possibility of receiving any sort of accolade for my intelligent writing, witty responses, or well crafted arguments outside of this forum.

Second, I struggle with wondering about the motives of anyone who chooses to allow their name to be posted. Again...i am not suggesting anyone who chooses to write with their own name maintains impure motives. I am simply saying...i cannot get around the fact that i will wonder what sort of agenda you have. I am sorry for this...i really am. It is MY weakness. I love the idea of a "culture of trust." But i am not a "Kingdom Now" theologian. I don't think it is possible in a format like this one. I think it is far closer to possible in face to face situations. I will always struggle with wondering about peoples' motives until i have met them personally and had the opportunity to get to know them. This is one of those tensions that, i believe, as long as we live in a fallen world, in fallen bodies, with deceitful hearts will remain

Is a "culture of trust" possible in a format like this one, once removed from face to face encounters?!? Technology is great...but it is limiting and impersonal....whether or not i attach my real name or not.

Third, some people legitimately do not care if you "know" who they are.

Fourth, i think we would all be foolish to believe that the their isn;t being some sort of monitoring. i agree with previous posts alluding to this. I think there is a big difference in being martyred for Christ and being martyred for an organization or as a result of someone's personal vendetta. Until we receive our redeemed bodies...we look through the glass darkly. In 2,000 years of brutal Christian history, political maneuvering, holy wars, the Inquisition, etc, etc, etc, why should i assume we are making progress? I will never assume all of Christendom is Christian. Even if they are...they still sin.

When people write to slander...
1. Everyone can recognize it.
2. I think we have doen a good job of calling them on it.

I would appreciate if we respected peoples' choices to remain anonymous. We have our reasons.

People who write anonymously have nothing to lose...and NOTHING TO GAIN.; January 23, 2008 1:59 PM
David Letterman said...: Defender...great word and I agree with you. I as well have felt the sting of reprisal before and do know as I stated that this blog is definately monitored (and I've gotten this from two or more witnesses so I'm Scriptural!:) I think that crossing the line is unaceptable but I also think that some like to attach the anonymous posters to deflect from legitimate and worthwhile postings that hit a little too close to home.; January 23, 2008 2:12 PM
Anonymous said...: anonymous 1:59...
good choice of words...

I too have nothing to gain...or lose...

and some would say if that is true sign your name...

we probably would if there were more maturity in us being able to embracing other people's calling/anointing that does not look like theirs...

Maybe another good topic would be "How Can We Learn to Embrace people's gifts that are legitimate from God, but don't look like ours?; January 23, 2008 2:13 PM
David Letterman said...: attack that is...sorry; January 23, 2008 2:13 PM
Anonymous said...: Why would you want to be a part of a fellowship that you don't trust and one that your fear?; January 23, 2008 2:20 PM

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Friday, January 18, 2008

Doug Clay Elected General Treasurer

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