Here at FutureAG, we want to promote positive change within the Assemblies of God at all levels of the movement: individual and corporate; congregational, district-level, and national; ecclesial and educational. The important issues are what and how. What constitutes positive change? And how do we implement positive change?
In this post, I’d like to prescind from the what issue and focus on the how issue. Ultimately, of course, these issues must be considered together. We cannot implement a process of positive change without having some idea of what constitutes positive change, after all. Nonetheless, for the time being, I want to focus our attention on the methodology of change.
The outline of my remarks is taken from Leading Change by John P. Kotter. Kotter writes that there are eight steps leaders must take in order to change their organizations.
First, establish a sense of urgency.
“After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. ‘The time has come,’ he said. ‘The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!’” (Mark 1:14-15)
The reason why the AG needs to implement positive change is because the nearness of God’s kingdom compels people to make a choice for or against him. We who follow Christ are specifically commissioned to place this choice before people (Matt. 28:18-20). Unless we do so, how will they experience the righteousness, peace, and joy which is the kingdom of God (Rom. 10:14-15; cf. 14:17)?
Unfortunately, our sense of urgency about the AG does not always derive from the nearness of the kingdom. Instead, it comes from the decline of our institutions. Our ministerial cohort is graying, our adherence statistics are stagnating, and many young leaders are leaving our fellowship for association with other denominations and parachurch organizations. These institutional losses are problematic, but they are means problems, not ends problems.
If our ministerial cohort is graying, that is a problem only because younger ministers are means of reaching younger generations with the gospel of the kingdom. If our adherence statistics are stagnating, that is a problem only because we are not effectively evangelizing unbelievers and discipling new believers. If young leaders are leaving our fellowship for other associations, that is only a problem because they view those other associations as more effective change agents than our own movement.
If you want to solve these means problem, focus on the ends problem. Focus on the nearness of the kingdom and the decision it compels. That will establish a sense of urgency around which our entire movement can rally. Our evangelistic mission, in other words, must take priority over institutional maintenance. Our institutions must serve the mission.
Second, form a powerful guiding coalition.
Optimally, every congregation, each district, and the entire national headquarters will be institutionally committed to the church’s kingdom-advancing mission. Unfortunately, we all know about the problem of mission drift, of the power of institutions and bureaucracies to pursue their own interests at the expense of their founding purpose. If there is any complaint that the AG blogosphere has about AG institutions, it is that they are maintenance-oriented, rather than missional and ministry-oriented.
The long-term solution to this problem is institutional reform. Our structures—at the congregational, district, and national level—must be repurposed and reformed. We—that is, the ministers who form the governing bodies of the various district councils and General Council—must demand, and in some cases, enforce accountability on the organizational structures of our movement. That requires prayerful and informed participation in the business meetings of our movement. There is no other way to repurpose and reform our governing bodies.
Unfortunately, such repurposing and reform takes time. It took approximately thirty years to change our fellowship’s policy on credentialing divorced and remarried ministers in order to bring it in line with what the Bible teaches. Few people have the patience for that kind of change. Hopefully, the structural changes that need to take place can be done more quickly.
But as we wait for and work toward long-lasting, institutional reform, we can take action right now too. Nothing stops us from forming ad hoc ministerial networks within the existing structures. If you want to band together with other like-minded ministers for resource and support, you do not have to wait until the General Council provides de jure approval for a relational-district resolution. Form a de facto relational district right away (without, I should add, ceasing to support your district as it is current structured). Or, if you don’t like the relational district idea, follow the lead of Mark Batterson and National Community Church and start up an annual conference as a resource for like-minded ministers.
As we organize these ad hoc/de facto structures, the de jure structures will take notice of what works and get on board the band wagon. The most powerful guiding coalition is the one that is out front of the institution, modeling what positive change looks like.
Third, create a vision.
Let me speak personally, for a moment. When I think about what the AG can and should be, I think of the word army, not denomination. Part of this vision for the AG comes from the references to spiritual warfare in Ephesians 6:10-20. Our fellowship has enlisted on the Lord’s side in his struggle against principalities and powers.
(Just a side note: when Paul writes that our struggle is not against flesh and blood, he means it. Our spiritual warfare is not against gays, lesbians, liberals, Muslims, abortionists, or whatever. Our spiritual warfare is against the devil on their behalf. They are the contested territory we are fighting over. They are not the enemy we are fighting against. I wish we ministers who preach about this passage would make that point of distinction more clearly.)
The main reason I see the AG as an army is because an army has a unified purpose and a structure organized around that purpose. The purpose of an army is to fight. It is organized to accomplish that purpose. The soldier in the field may do the hand-to-hand combat, but a supply chain keeps him fed and armed, a competent officer corps trains him and strategically deploys him, etc.
In my vision for the AG, our movement has a singularity of purpose (proclaiming the kingdom) and an organization to meet that purpose. The local congregation may be the frontline soldiers in that task of proclamation, but behind them stand district officials who resource and supply them, college professors who teach and coach them, national leaders who unite them, etc.
Fourth, communicate that vision.
Here, I have two questions. (1) Do our leaders consistently communicate to us? The answer, unfortunately, is mixed. Some district leaders proactively communicate with the ministers under the care. Not only do they send them monthly newsletters, but they pick up the phone and call them. And they don’t just call when there’s a crisis, they call simply to build the relationship. But this is not true in every district. Would that it were! (And by the way, would that we pastors would communicate as proactively with our congregations as we wish our district leaders communicated with us!)
(2) What do our leaders communicate? Does it edify and encourage us? Does it train us for the task at hand? Unfortunately, not always. Again, the situation seems to depend on which district you’re in. Sometimes, it seems the only communications we receive from our leaders announces policy changes with which we disagree or asks for more money.
The one thing we ask of our leaders is that before they demand something of us, they build a relationship with us.
Fifth, empower others to act on the vision.
One of the biggest problems facing the AG in accomplishing its kingdom-proclaiming mission is the problem of old wineskins. The culture which gave birth to the AG in 1914 is very different from the culture in which we now live. Indeed, the culture in which my father was raised is very different from the culture in which I was raised. And I minister to young people who were raised in a culture that is totally alien to me. If we are going to reach people with the message of the kingdom, we must be very flexible about methodology. And that means that our leaders, who are typically older and used to a different culture than we younger ministers, must allow us younger ministers to experiment with methodologies that work in our cultural context. Not allow; that’s the wrong word. They must proactively empower. What worked in 1914 is not what worked in 1964 and is not what will work in 2014.
Empowering others to act, to use means and methodologies which are alien to the culture in which one was raised, requires great trust. We younger ministers who clamor for freedom to experiment must earn that trust by showing our fidelity to the gospel of the kingdom. Our leaders, who are older, must trust us to proclaim the kingdom in a language and style that is not their own. This is the essence of empowerment and cooperation.
And aren’t we a voluntary, cooperative fellowship? To cooperate with someone means to work with them toward the accomplishment of a task. Whatever our age, whatever the culture in which we came to Christ, whatever the means and methodologies we use, aren’t we supposed to cooperate with one another? Cooperation doesn’t mean merely that we cooperate (co-work) with our district leaders. It must also mean that they cooperate (co-work) with us. If they do not cooperate with us, then we are working for them, not with them. Forms of leadership that demand obedience and respect without the balance of empowerment and trust betray the essence of voluntary cooperation.
Sixth, plan for and create short-term wins.
We’ve already had a few: (1) this blog, (2) the Bucca di Bepo lunch, (3) meeting with General Superintendent Wood at Springfield, (4) having AG leaders respond to these posts, (5) the expansion of the Executive Presbytery to be representative of younger ministers and women, and (6) the change of tone coming from Springfield, just to name five. We want to see more positive change, but we should celebrate the changes that have already been made.
Seventh, consolidate improvements and keep the momentum for change moving.
This, I think, is where many of us are stuck. We’ve started the ball rolling, but how do we keep it rolling. I would do several things. (1) Keep the tone positive. (2) Get more involved, not less involved, in the current organizational structures. (3) Build local networks and coalitions with like-minded ministers in your section, district, and region. (4) Go to all denominational business meetings. (5) Call your district superintendent and let him know you’re praying for him. (6) Write a few sample resolutions and post them on a blog for our consideration.
Eight, institutionalize the new approaches.
Unfortunately, we haven’t reached the level of institutionalized change yet (other than expanding the EP). What we can institutionalize is transparency and tone. Everyone who contributes to this blog, by way of posts or comments, is being transparent with his/her readers. What we need in our fellowship is more openness, more honesty, more authenticity, not less. But alongside with this transparency is the need for graciousness in tone. No one wants to listen to a chronic grumbler or complainer. But most people will listen to a constructive critic who has the other person’s best interests in mind. That is the kind of people we should be. Positive change requires positive change agents. The kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. As we work to effect positive change in our fellowship, are our thoughts, feelings, words and actions characterized by righteousness, joy, and peace? If we can change the transparency and tone of the debate about how to change the AG, we will in fact change the AG, and in changing it, help proclaim the kingdom to our generation.
So, my friends, suaviter in modo, fortiter in re. That's Latin for "Sweetly in method, strongly in the matter at hand." Let's be strong for change in the AG, but let's do it with the sweet spirit which only the Spirit can provide.
Monday, December 10, 2007
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199 comments:
GPW wrote "Our spiritual warfare is not against gays, lesbians, liberals, Muslims, abortionists, or whatever. Our spiritual warfare is against the devil on their behalf. They are the contested territory we are fighting over. They are not the enemy we are fighting against. "
This reminds me of an essay I wrote for a contest CCM magazine had back around 1990 related to Petra's "On Fire!" album. It was titled "Warfare 101", and the jist of it was that the abortionists, gays, atheists, etc. are not the enemy, but are prisoners of war that have been taken captive by the enemy.
Good post, George. I think this is the right track. And I would add, lest anyone think otherwise, that "sweetness in tone" does not mean a loss of passion about your opinion or point of view. Recently, as a gift, I was given an 1817 printing of John Wesley's response to Dr. Taylor on original sin. To say he disagreed with Taylor is an understatement. Yet, prior to making his case, he wrote the following:
"There is a danger [in the Christian system] of a warmth which does no honour to our cause, nor is at all countenanced by the revelation which we defend. I desire neither to show, nor to feel this, but to "speak the truth in love," (the only warmth, which the gospel allows) and to write with calmness, though not with indifference. There is likewise a danger of despising our opponents, and of speaking with an air of contempt or disdain. I would gladly keep clear of this also; well knowing that a diffidence of ourselves is far from implying a diffidence of our cause : I distrust myself, not my argument!"
The paragraph, as a whole, has captured me. It is, however, this last line that hits me hardest...
"I distrust myself, not my argument."
Looking forward to more!
"Leading change in the AG" but don't you think that we have in the AG what I will call a "Jeruslem Syndrome". Post-modern generation has been blessed with a strong system and nice facilities but we are too comfortables in Jeruslem. We should go out and get involve in a mission projet. Our grand parents had many issues too but the Spirit of Mission helped to surpass everything. The graves of americans missionaries in Ouagadougou speak more than all the theses we may write about the AG. Don't we have great testimonies from our churches and districts to report in this blog??? We should edify by telling what the Lord has done through our generation.
By the way you are still invited to visit Burkina Faso in Africa.
Wenna Songe'!
Douglas Ouedraogo from Burkina Faso Africa.
adcissin1.multiply.com
George - Some have wondered,
“where are the blog authors?"
We forget that you guys have full time ministries to serve.
Thanks for sharing your heart and bringing some balance back to your blog.
I believe:
- True Spiritual Warfare
doesn't happen in the pew.
- The American church will
not be effective until we
again, take the Gospel
message to the
streets.
- Loving the hurting and
lonely people will change
our cities and towns. And
re-open the doors to our
churches.
Many of our churches have become sterile. We are more like museums remembering our glorious past. Unless we start touching broken lives, where they live, we will not have a glorious future.
Yes, the blog hosts do have full time ministries like most of the people posting here. However, it would make more sense that they were not posting here if they were also not posting on their other blogs or responding to comments there.
The city I live in is about 10 minutes from an Army base. When I lived here the first time it was before 9/11. I still have several friends who were in the army at that time. Now that I'm back here I have made new friends that are currently in the army.
I say this because I see a huge difference in the soldier's attitude. Before 9/11 it seemed as though they had lost a sense of purpose. Soldiers were meant to fight and I knew some that never left the states their entire time they were active. It seemed as though they were willing to fight anybody when they didn't have anybody to fight. Now, most soldiers have been to Iraq or Afghanistan already, or they are fresh out of boot and are about to be deployed. They know their purpose and they know their enemy and they know their friends. They are doing what they were trained to do.
GPW mentioned that we are an army. I think we're a pre-9/11 army. Sure, individuals know that they're called and why, but I get the impression that the organization doesn't really know why the organization exists. Which causes the individual soldiers to turn on each other.
I've been thinking a lot lately about the proverbial "next generation" making this Christianity thing their own. The questions and the criticisms aren't necessarily what it first seems to be rather a need to make it their own.
I think we're trying to make this fellowship/organization/network/denomination our own. We're trying to figure out the organization's purpose and vision. At this point we don't see a vision and purpose. At this point we see a whole lot of soldiers stuck in the states when the soldiers we're meant to fight. We have lost sight of our original mission.
So, I'm wondering if those who have been in this longer could tell us why the Assemblies of God exists? What's our mission? Why should we bother changing things? How does being a part of the Assemblies of God expand the Kingdom better than doing it on our own?
I have my own ideas but these are honest, sincere questions and I would appreciate honest, sincere answers without the "it's hopeless" comments.
I would like to suggest one other thing. If we have a mission, If the AG expands the Kingdom and/or has the potential to expand the Kingdom then can we please move towards GPW's suggestions and begin changing things? Or If it is hopeless, can we please just close up shop and move on? We've had our time to vent its time to be proactive or to quit.
Hey Wes......you might want to be careful speaking for everyone when you say that we've had our time to vent. You don't know that everyone has had this opportunity nor is it proper in my opinion to begin telling people on a blog what they can and cannot contribute.
George, well said. I must say that I've been encouraged by the simple fact that leaders of our fellowship have taken the time to listen (and even respond) to what has been said on this blog. Perhaps the day will come where we can discuss these things with an even larger number of AG folk (like we used to in the Pentecostal Evangel).
Anonymous 2:33, thanks for providing another good example of a whiny, critical spirit. The individuals that set up this blog have no obligation to you, or any of us, to post on a regular basis. They do this because they love our fellowship and want to see it improve. They may post more regularly on their personal sites, but there's a great chance that those postings are specifically directed to their own congregations. I think you should be grateful that there is a place to discuss these issues at all, even if that means you have to wait 3 or 4 days to get an update (and why is it that you're only happy when the moderators post? it seems like there is a tremendous amount of discussion within the comments even when they aren't posting). I think that there should be numerous sites similar to this one to keep the ball rolling, so if you don't like waiting around, why not start your own?
Anonymous 10:00, thanks for providing a great example of a self-referentially inconsistent statement. I think I'll use that on my class's final exam!
Paul F...thanks for being the perfect example of those you are taking to taks...how hypocritical!!
Boys:
Let's not get snarky with each other. LOL!
George
"We're trying to figure out the organization's purpose and vision."
I think GS Wood did a good and proactive job by posting his 5-point mission. My question is "HOW?"
Not to diminish his God-given agenda, but it is nothing new. How are we going to keep from repeating the past? (God knows we don't need another Decade of Harvest.)
This is what I am looking for out of our movement.
Good post & it is a good challenge for us. I guess it got me thinking - how often do I pray for my district leaders and what if I hosted some sort of gathering at my church for my section or got to know the pastors in some way - perhaps sending a Christmas card or something of that nature to begin with.
I have seen some pastors in my district starting to get facebook accounts, which helps me to get to know them a little better.
I suppose we can all learn and have an open heart to get to know each other better. I am encouraged when I read posts such as this because it gives me a sense of hope for our church.
Blessings!
Anonymous 2:23, I don't see how what I said was hypocritical. Regarding the whiny comments, I think there is a genuine difference between offering constructive criticism and just being whiny (I took my own comment to be the former). Perhaps the poster can change my mind.
I believe that when people try to initiate change it is important to leave the meddlesome issues aside and focus on what is important (and it is important to get people to not focus on the unimportant). If not, those that we are trying to convince to change will have good reasons to think we are all a bunch of complainers. When I stray from offering constructive criticism (directed toward the AG leadership or other bloggers), I expect those that read this blog to call me on it. If not, then I'll lose my ability to convince anyone because I'll be viewed as a whiny complainer. (Anonymous 2:33 doesn't have that problem because he/she posts anonymously.)
I also really do believe there should be many sites like this one (e.g. the Wiki site discussed in earlier threads). If this person doesn't like this blog, why not start another? I'm sure people would visit there too and we could, hopefully, bring about more change that enables the AG to fulfill its mission better.
Regarding my critique of the self-referentially inconsistent comment directed toward Wes, well, that's just true. To say "You shouldn't tell people what they can't post (paraphrased)" is in fact telling people what not to post. It's like saying "There are no universal truths." Similar to my above comments, if I say something that is logically fallacious, inconsistent, or just wrong I expect my fellow bloggers to call me on it.
I guess what it comes down to is that I think we should offer reasons for our positions (e.g. Why should the moderators post more regularly? Why is it bad to tell people they can no longer vent?). It's much harder to be a whiny complainer if you have to come up with good reasons to support it. If I had said, "Don't be a whiny complainer" and left it at that, I'd be no better (and, as you are using the term, a hypocrite). But, because I've offered reasons for my position, those unconvinced have the ability to critique it.
What a brilliant and uplifting commentary on Paul F by Paul F!:)
I am anononymous 2:33 - since you have asked, to clarify my position regarding the hosts posting/not posting - it's not that I expect them to post. It's just that many, many people have asked for their comment on things over the past few weeks with the firestorm of comments that have come forth on these issues and I have a really hard time believing that they haven't read any of it, heard about it, or are entirely oblivious to it. This is not a knock on them. I think something deeper is wrong and I believe we need to pray seriously for them, for strength, wisdom and courage.
I am puzzled, along with others who have made comment about it, as to why they have not so much as commented with a single sentence on the issues when they were previously so vocal. It really makes you wonder if they are feeling pressure from the higher ups, if they themselves might fear some sort of repercussion of sharing their true thoughts. My remark was not intended to be a slam on them whatsoever. The fact that they have posted and commented often on their other blogs led me to believe that maybe there was another reason they don't feel comfortable commenting here right now. In fact I have prayed for them in this whole matter because quite frankly - I'm not saying this is happening - just that it wouldn't surprise me if somebody higher up in the A/G -not necessarily our GS as he's been very open, but maybe some of our DS, EP's, etc.- hadn't spoken to them about this and advised them or perhaps even outright demanded for them to shut down the blog or at the very least remove some comments. (I am personally aware that this has happened in the past with other individuals in the AG who hosted websites and message boards. There was quick action to control it. ) IF (the operative word being IF) this has also happened with FutureAG, it must put them in a very difficult position. They have birthed something that has been very needed, sorely overdue and I'm sure there is a HUGE amount of spiritual warfare going on with this whole thing. My thought was perhaps they are not able to comment for reasons that have nothing to do with Christmas programs, busy schedules or such. Maybe they are under a huge burden with this that they are not able to tell us. I am convinced in my heart there is more behind it and we need to truly PRAY for them that whatever might be coming against them, they do not buckle under or bow to - that they would stand firm and that God would give them courage.
Anonymous 7:39 AM:
I haven't been pressured by anyone, and I doubt that any of the other bloggers have been either. But I've emailed Paul and Tory, so they can speak for themselves.
GPW
Anonymous 2:33 (I'll stick with your original time), thanks for clarifying. I apologize for saying you're being whiny and critical. As I stated in a previous post, when we see the reasons behind comments, we can address them. I seriously hope that you are wrong as to why they don't post more often (and hope our GS can help stem the tide of those that want things like this shut down). Maybe some of them can address that issue at some point. Personally, there have been times that I want to respond but don't have the time to think about the details of the response and a simple sentence or two just won't be sufficient. I don't have time because I'm doing other things (like posting on my own site) that are more pressing (like grading papers). Maybe I'm being naive, but I have a feeling they have similar reasons. Again, thanks for clarifying and please accept my apologies.
Anonymous at 2:33 said, “It really makes you wonder if they are feeling pressure from the higher ups…they [blog hosts] themselves might fear some sort of repercussion of sharing their true thoughts... I have prayed for them in this whole matter because quite frankly … maybe some of our DS, EP's … advised them or perhaps even outright demanded for them to shut down the blog or at the very least remove some comments… IF (the operative word being IF) this has also happened with FutureAG, it must put them in a very difficult position… I'm sure there is a HUGE amount of spiritual warfare going on with this whole thing.”
People love conspiracy theories. They have a great “water cooler” effect. But trust me, there isn’t a “huge amount of spiritual warfare” going on over this blog. IT IS A BLOG! More than half the people on the blog don’t even want to publicize their names. Believe me, none of the originators are “in a very difficult place.” GOW posts on it! His son helps host it. This isn’t communist China of the 1960’s.
True, a lot of the opinions may not be main stream, and would cause some of the GPs and DSs to be infuriated if you asked their opinions on some of the particular issues that have been discussed. I mean, look at the furor that arose when we started to talk about districts. Sure the leadership would be mad, you are attacking their livelihood. However, you can rest assured that 98% of the AG leadership haven’t read this blog since General Council concluded.
This blog can continue to fill a huge need for the fellowship through idea sharing and secondarily a forum to vent frustrations. But make no mistake about it, the Assemblies of God is a huge organization and change always will come very, very, slow. How could it be any other way? The General Presbytery only meets once a year and the whole constituency only meets every two years. Quick change??? Not gonna happen! But rest assured, big brother isn’t looking over anybody’s shoulders ready to seize their credentials card.
Paul F - I think it is wrong to tell people that they can no longer vent because this may be the only place that they feel they can vent. Who am I to tell them that the time has now come and their frustrations/feelings are not valid to express? They may be brand new to this blog and have never posted one item negative or positive yet and they want to be heard. Change won't come by restricting expression.
GPW - Thanks for the post. Change is difficult to figure out and even more difficult to implement. An example. Central Bible College is at it's lowest enrollment since the 1960's. Now, they have more administrator's and professors running the place with Doctorates and Masters than ever in history and yet they can't figure out why their enrollment keeps plummenting. Your heading says it all..."LEADING change in the AG". From my point of view their is a void in true leaders in many of our districts, colleges, and in Springfield. I'm encouraged by the new leaders in Spfld for sure. District's many of them are led by men/women who have never grown a church and yet we are to follow them. Colleges/universities the same applies along with some of them becoming more concerned with academics (and I'm not against academics at all) than the leading of the Holy Spirit and developing real leaders. What is the main difference between CBC and Southeastern? Leadership! The difference between a happening and growing district and one that exercises control on church attenance? Leadership! Let's discuss more ways to develop more leaders!!
Paul, Tony, George, Jeff & Brad -
I want you to know that GPH has been interested in your blog and is creating a permanent site to gather input regarding ministries and tools to better resource our churches.
I have a temporary site that is being used for that now.
If it is appropriate, please share this info with your bloggers - I would love to hear from them. (This info is being collected and passed on to GPH now.)
Here is the temporary site -
discipleshipbestpractices.blogspot.com;
Thanks for sharing your ideas!
Tom Bougher
I want to commend my son, George Paul, for his salient observations on leading change in the AG. Of course, I am biased. I admire him so much. He is such a clear thinker and has such a good heart! And, he doesn't consult with me about what he is going to say on the blog; but I learn from him and whether we always agree or not -- he is my beloved son in whom I am also well pleased!
I want to reiterate that I appreciate the involvement of younger ministers on this blog. You wouldn't be contributing unless you loved the Assemblies of God and want to make it better.
We just concluded a 3 day retreat in Nashville with district superintendents, district secretary-treasurers, and college presidents. The continual theme of the retreat dealt with leading change on the district level.
I well realize that change may take place too fast for some and too slow for others. I can only repeat the phrase that was popular several years ago and use it of the Assemblies of God leadership on the national and district levels: "Please be patient with us. God is not finished with us yet!"
There have been a number of words we have used to describe ourselves over the years. We have not liked the word denomination, although sociologically we are one. So, we've used the term "Movement" -- because we want to make advances for Jesus, and we have used the term "Fellowship" because we wanted to stress that there is great liberty to pursue vision and that what ties us together is not a smothering structure, but a common mission. I've been using a different term lately: "family." In a family, you have strong personalities and different opinions but the ties that bind are greater than the differences expressed.
In January I have a small book (about 100 pages) that will be mailed to each minister dealing in greater detail with the five core values I'm pursuing. I hope you'll take opportunity to read it and give me feedback -- gensup@ag.org.
I've been reading the blog all along. I'm picking up on the concerns being expressed, but I've been a pastor long enough to know that it is impossible to please everyone. But, if our hearts are right and our priorities please the Lord, then good days lie ahead.
On the blog, there has been discussion that the questions on the annual renewal may not flesh out what's really important. So, John Palmer is going to put together a group to look at the annual renewal questionnaire and what shape it should like look in the future. You are welcome to email him at gensec@ag.org with any suggestions. John left for Chile for ministry over the next week -- so hold your fire for a few days -- but do pray for him while he is down south!
The Executive Presbytery has also appointed a task force to look at the whole issue of credentialing younger ministers. We're going to look seriously at enhancing the attractiveness of the Assemblies of God to young (and older) men and women who have a call of God upon their lives.
I've been in office now just a few days past two months. Perhaps the most heartening aspect of my new responsibilities is the expression literally hundreds of people have either written or spoken to me, "We are praying for you." I have never had so many people praying for me in all my life, and it is deeply humbling. I am so grateful.
One of the exciting things I did today was meet with an international group with AG representatives from Africa, Asia, Latin America, North America, Europe, and the Middle East. The topic? The growing movement within AG national churches (212 indigeneous AG national bodies now world-wide) to send missionaries. Scores of missionaries are now already going out from our daughter churches -- and often to places that are restricted or difficult for USA citizens. God is at work tremendously in our international AG family.
Thanks to all of you for staying engaged in the discussion of how the Assemblies of God can better serve Jesus, serve our people, and serve you.
Let me close by repeating again the advice given me by one of the mentors that I have so admired: J. Robert Ashcroft. He told me: "Let your emphasis be on the CREATIVE and CONSTRUCTIVE above the CRITICAL and CORRECTIVE." He said, "George, there is nothing wrong with being critical and corrective -- just don't let your emphasis fall there." I've spent my years since then trying to do that.
That's what I encourage you to do. Don't just find fault with things. After the diagnosis, work on creating solutions that move the mission of Jesus forward. And, remember that intensive prayer provides the most creative forum possible for hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit. We must be careful that we not just come up with new ideas -- we must hear His ideas because, after all, this is His church and not ours!
In just a few years, those of us in my generation are going to be off the scene and watching you from the balconies of heaven -- if it has balconies, and if we are allowed to look! So, lay now the good foundations that will make the Assemblies of God what it should be when you are my age!
Oh, and by the way, may this Christmas be most joyous for all of you, your families, and churches!
George O. Wood
Dear Gen Sup,
As a Dodger fan you are familiar with the call of a home run (your last comment) by Vin Scully "this Ball is gone" . Thanks Sup - you are "the man"( without esteroids) for such an hour as this in the time and life of our Assemblies Of God.
Sorry Anonymous. I've been following this blog since July. At the time I wrote my last comment I wasn't thinking about people discovering the blog much more recent than that. Comment however you want.
I was simply getting discouraged because I wasn't sure that anything was being achieved anymore by this blog. Seeing the Gen. Sup.'s comment is encouraging because it shows that I was wrong.
It's been since August since I posted, but I read it every couple days. I have told others about the blog and topics factor into our conversations and decisions. Many times I would like to comment, but don't have the time to do so. Most of the time my comments agree with others, so I let the more eloquent ones stand.
I think our leadership has proven with their comments on this blog (Dr. Woods, Beth Grant, & numerous others) that we are headed into exciting territory.
Keep up the good work!
Marvin Miller
Principal, Palm View Christian Schools - Whittier,CA
I am a second year resident AGTS student and one very deeply involved in the due diligence processes with the AG. My wife and I are still unsure if our ministerial vision and calling will line up with the goals, values, character and integrity of the denomination. So I greatly appreciate this blog and specifically the “Leading Change” post. It allows us to see behind the curtain a bit.
I have both met Kotter and spent a significant amount of time implementing his ideas within organizations. I’m glad to see others consider his wisdom and insights helpful and instructive. I hope change takes place. We must change and quickly, for all our sakes.
Since the denominational seminary was not mentioned in the first paragraph as an organization within the AG that would benefit from positive change, I thought I would chime in with a few observations I have gathered during my time in the AGTS culture. Obviously these observations represent one person’s vantage point. However, I have tried to limit my statements to those subjects which I know a wide and diverse cross section of seminarians discuss amongst themselves regularly. My hope is to start dialog among not simply students but faculty, administration and most importantly with our single largest benefactor, the General Council. I’ll start first with:
The Good:
• There currently exists an amazing wealth of young, intelligent, talented and eager future leaders devoted to the call of Christ and the furtherance of His kingdom.
• These young leaders seem to be initially attracted to AGTS because they believe the seminary will continue to build upon their previous Pentecostal experience that encouraged pursuit and worship of God in Spirit and Truth.
• These young leaders know what they do not know.
• They know who and who does not understand them and their unique perspectives.
• They are very hard to fool. They sniff out authenticity and devote themselves to the pursuit of transparency and truth.
• The seminary is much more tolerating of frank discussion over issues and theological positions than most of our AG church leaders. The freedom to question why a certain belief or doctrine exists is widespread.
• Frank admission of disagreement with denominational doctrine or outdated beliefs and traditions of an extra-biblical nature is encouraged and supported.
• The professors who seek out relationship with students, who represent integrity within their leadership positions, who encourage interactive learning, who adapt to the classroom instead of expecting the classroom to adapt to them and who realize education is a highly competitive and expensive product become a beacon that draws an overwhelming number of students for counsel and advise.
• Spiritual formation is the most anticipated area of study for most students.
The neutral:
• The administration seems to prefer scholars over teachers.
• Traditional ministry does not occur within the seminary. It is not exemplified or encouraged.
• There appears to be no system of accountability for learning outside of the semester end questionnaire.
The Bad:
• Great scholars are not necessarily good teachers.
• There is no intentional, effective, systematic mentoring/discipleship priority within the seminary. Students are largely left to their own devises to find and develop mentoring relationship.
• Many professors are not able to effectively focus on their main task of teaching and mentoring students. They are torn between their extra activity requirements to write, travel, speak and hold leadership positions in outside organizations.
• There is no organizational impetus to place students in positions within local churches to develop practically what is being learned theoretically.
• Many local church leaders have a bias against seminary students. These biases range from simple jealousy and fear of job security to outright disdain for the perceived ineffectiveness of higher education.
• There appears to be a significant lack of unity and support for student development between the local churches, the denominational leadership and the seminary administration. A “we” vs. “them” culture has developed within the movement.
• However, given the above, never have students been encouraged to consider how they might be agents of change. There is no support or guidance to take part in the process of development or renewing of the denominational positions and or strategy.
• Students uniformly report that spiritual formation is one the most disappointing area of instruction within the curriculum.
• Students come to their learning experience with a largely consumer oriented mentality. The seminary does not seem to recognize that students have a choice when they select institutions of higher learning.
• The President, Dean and majority of the faculty do not endeavor to connect with every student, every semester.
• The overwhelming majority of chapel services remain in the hands of the faculty and staff. Students are relegated to non- leadership roles.
• Despite the widespead awareness for the need of a seminary-led church where students can learn and develop their skills, none of the leadership within the administration or faculty will endeavor to change the political issues and turf struggles amoung the local church leaders in the area.
• Therefore it is commonly known that those who lecture on leadership development and are positions of leadership are not themselves applying the lessons they teach. This lends to a lack of credibility and greatly reduces the effectiveness of the entire institution.
• Most of the students are drawn to a few professors. Therefore these professors become overwhelmed and struggle emotionally, physically and spiritually with the burden of shepherding so large a flock.
• Students have filled out evaluation questionnaires for so long on the same professors and courses without any noticeable change the surveys have become routine and ineffective.
• There is no system of follow-up after graduation. Where are the seminary graduates? Did their education help them in mimistry? What changes would they now make looking back on their experience at AGTS? Where is the alumni association?
• The student advisory council and there officers hold nothing but ceremonial positions.
• The General council contributes nearly one million dollars a year to subsidize AGTS. Still on a dollar for dollar, credit hour for credit hour analysis, AGTS remains one of the most expensive denominational seminaries in the US.
Yes, Mr. Wood, change must occur. But for systemic change to occur at this magnitude leaders with indelible moral courage must arise and take their place. Moral courage is the quality that compels a leader to take the appropriate course of action regardless of the consequences. Do we have those types of leaders within the AG? We shall see.
agts student,
You seem to suggest that the consumer oriented mentality among the students isn't a problem. I think that very consumer oriented mentality is one of the major problems with higher education today. Sure, students have a wide range of options in choosing a school, but the fact that they chose AGTS shouldn't make the school 'owe' them a thing. They chose the school because it does things well (or that's why they should've chosen the school). If they don't like the way AGTS operates, then they should've gone somewhere else. Instead of AGTS caving in to the consumer mentality, I'm glad to hear that they're doing what they feel like is best for the school.
You also seem troubled that the President and Dean don't "endeavor to connect with every student, every semester." I don't think you'd find that in a single job description at any good school in the nation. The President's and the Dean's job isn't to make current students feel good about being there. Their job is ensure that the school runs well, its reputation is growing (positively of course), and that the school's mission is being accomplished. (You may have a point about the faculty, but that would depend on what their job description is too. At many schools faculty is expected to build relationships with students, but at many others the faculty is expected to publish like crazy. I don't know what AGTS faculty are to do, but I think its more of the former than latter.)
I'm also interested to hear why a seminary-led church is such a good idea. At first pass, it sounds like a terrible one. If it's true that local churches have doubts about AGTS students, then those doubts need to be addressed. I think it would be a disservice if the students participated in a seminary church because once they're done at AGTS it's almost certain they won't have the same resources at their new church that they do at AGTS (I don't mean financial resources, but other like minded staff members that value education, etc.). Sadly, most churches that the students end up at will have only one seminary graduate. It also seems like non-students that attend the church would have a difficult time because there would be a constant come and go among the members. It's hard to really build relationships with people when you know they're leaving in a year or two. I'm interested to hear your thoughts, especially about the seminary church thing (I've had many conversations with friends about this).
Cheers,
Paul...
I agreed with most of your comments to AGTS student with the exception of your opening one. I think that when a student pays a school anywhere from $25K to $50K... that school owes them quite a bit.
I treated every one of my 10+ years of undergrad and post-grad work with a consumer mentality. With the amount of money I was investing, I made sure that I was getting what was advertised from the get-go.
When my seminary brought in an incredibly high-profile Greek prof my third year, I added the course to my already overloaded schedule excited to study under him. But, when he began having a research student cover 70% of his lectures... we as a class filed a formal complaint and asked for a refund. We weren't going to pay money to learn from a student with only one year on us. The school listened and corrected the prof's schedule and soon he was back behind the lectern.
College and Grad students are consumers. They are paying money for a product... education. If the school lets them down... or in any way provides something less than what was presented in the glossy, color-coated catalogue, they need to voice their complaint.
Paul F.,
Let me comment on your issues one by one.
“Instead of AGTS caving in to the consumer mentality, I'm glad to hear that they're doing what they feel like is best for the school.”
Without the students there is no school. What is best for the students is best for the school. It is a symbiotic relationship. If you assume the students do not know what is best for them you would be wrong. I would encourage you to spend time with an open mind with these students before you assume to know, better than they, what is best for them. Graduate students come to institutions with more experience than ever before. As I stated before, we come prepared with the questions we know need answering and we are well aware of the skills that need to be developed to accomplish our calling. We are learners but we are not naive. We need equipping. That is different than being spoon fed. We are in every way mature adults and many of the seminary students come from successful careers prior to following their call into ministry. Instructors need to be willing and able to defend their positions and beliefs while demonstrating the pragmatic benefits of their area of study.
You can debate whether a consumer mentality is right or wrong. It will not change the facts that students today do and will continue to look at their education in terms of features and benefits. There are some negatives to that mentality when taken to the extreme. However, at this point, the only way for students to actively voice their displeasure is to take their dollars elsewhere. That the AG offers no other viable seminary alternatives and therefore caters to somewhat of a captive market has allowed the administration to become largely unaccountable to the students for the product they produce. That does not represent good leadership nor is it good stewardship of the hearts, minds and tuition dollars students entrust to this institution.
“I don't think you'd find that in a single job description at any good school in the nation. The President's and the Dean's job isn't to make current students feel good about being there. Their job is to ensure that the school runs well, its reputation is growing (positively of course), and that the school's mission is being accomplished.”
So we don’t want students to feel good about being at AGTS? Whose job is that then? Or is the seminary supposed to be run like an airline where the mentality is: “You’ll take what you get and like it!”
Look, I believe these are good men. Unfortunately, after this long I can’t say that with personal certainty but I believe it is so. The current Academic Dean is a temporary fill-in. My comments were specifically directed at the current President and previous Dean who is now the President of another AG university. It is the question of priorities where I differ. Job descriptions are the easiest thing to change in any organization. You point out that President and Dean’s of other institutions do not typically have those criteria in their list of job responsibilities. So….is that what we want? Do we want our seminarians to model leaders who are aloof and distant from their communities and constituents? Are the other responsibilities so grand and important that relationship and connection with the people they serve nothing but a leisure activity? You may respect and yearn to follow those leaders. We do not. You may trust those you do not know simply because of the position they hold. We have learned that power, position, privilege and plaudits routinely accompany frauds. We want to know our leaders and be mentored by them. Realize this: AGTS is a small school with probably no more than 300 resident, full time students. If you count distance learning students who live out of state or doctoral students who come in for only 2-3 weeks a year, total student attendance goes to maybe 500. What pastoral staff would not endeavor to make some sort of connection with each regular member of their congregation of 300? A five minute conversation, a cup of coffee, a phone call, a hand written post card with each of those members in the course of a year, two hours a week, 100 hours a year, 5% of their work schedule. That would allow each student to have some level of connection with the leaders of AGTS. It’s not that tough. If their job descriptions are too full to engage the benefactors of their efforts then the organization needs to get out the pen and re-write their priorities. Significant spiritual, financial, emotional and familial needs continue to go unnoticed within the student body simply because the seminary doesn’t know and doesn’t ask. Think what the administration might learn. Think what impact they might have. One has to wonder if the reason they stay is simply because they don’t want to hear what the students have to say. Either way, real ministry, true discipleship is not modeled, only taught. Again, it’s a leadership issue.
“I'm also interested to hear why a seminary-led church is such a good idea. At first pass, it sounds like a terrible one. If it's true that local churches have doubts about AGTS students, then those doubts need to be addressed.”
Yes, they do. But they haven’t and it doesn’t appear to become a priority any time soon. In the meantime the majority of students are left with little or no opportunity to engage the tools they are being handed every day. They learn to preach but have nowhere and no one to preach to. They to exegete scripture down to the original language but no one will give them the opportunity to pass on their knowledge. They learn about how to develop disciple making ministries and how to initiate spiritual formation but no opportunities are provided to implement those strategies and ideas. Full tool belts, no lumber. So, what are we left with? A seminary church would act like a teaching hospital. The issue about turnover is easily overcome. University churches all over the country deal with the same issue every four or so years when students graduate as do ministries such as Chi-Alpha or Campus Crusade. They deal with it by continually developing new leaders and passing on the skills and knowledge required to continue the ministry. Certainly a steady, full time pastor would add stability. But a seminary sponsored church has the added benefit of the stability faculty advisors would provide. If the church takes off there would be no reason why a permanent staff could not be positioned. But the focus of providing ministry opportunities for students to the community would need to remain the priority.
“It's hard to really build relationships with people when you know they're leaving in a year or two.”
I think students already factor that into every relationship at the onset. Few of us know where God is specifically going to call us. We do know that it probably won’t be Springfield for the majority. That means most of us will be leaving. However that fact does not stop us from engaging one another at a deep level. I think this is a universal reality. Many of us leave college while having made the most significant relationships of our lives even though we knew it would end in only a few years. In fact I think you could argue it was a catalyst.
The issue isn’t whether it’s a good idea. If a teaching hospital works for Johns Hopkins it would work the same benefits for AGTS. Let’s call the problem here what it is: Fear. Local pastors have veto power over which new churches are allowed to birth within their district. Bottom line: they are afraid of the perceived competition a seminary led church poses. It’s a turf war. As long as the priority and focus of these churches remains putting butts in seats instead of furthering the Kingdom of God we will continue to have these conflicts. As long as people continue to live and die separated from Jesus in this city then why would we stop a group of called, trained, equipped and devoted followers of Jesus from meeting a need and gaining valuable experience?
Finally let me say this, I don’t know you and it is difficult to discern motive and intent in writing but I clearly sense a “love it or leave it” mentality in your response. I must say it is exactly that attitude which galvanizes opposition to the overwhelming majority of denominational religions. If that attitude is or becomes pervasive the AG will lose the best and brightest of this generation and begin a long painful demise into history. My interpretation of Mr. Wood’s intention for publishing his article on change was to stem the tide of just such a mentality. It is that conversation in which I and my generation desire engaging. If I’m wrong or misinterpreted your comments let me apologize now and say I look forward to your response.
Lane,
I think we agree on that more than you think. You do have the right to expect to get what was advertised. If the school advertises no graduate student teachers or a large degree of faculty accessibility, then you should expect that. My point is that many "consumer oriented" students have the "the customer is always right" or "now that you've got me, do xyz to keep me" mindset as well. That is what I disagree with.
What bothers me the most about the consumer mindset is when students feel like because they paid their money the deserve the professor to teach and grade a certain way. Students often expect their professor to adapt to their way of learning, but why should he do that? The students are the novices and he's the expert (can you imagine Daniel-son telling Mr. Miyagi that he doesn't learn well by washing cars?). Sometimes that means you have a boring professor, but guess what, he's the expert and we aren't. Dallas Willard is no joy to listen to speak, but what he says is unbelievable. Should his grad students at USC expect him to change his presentation style because they don't like it?
Education isn't simply a product you pay for, it's something you work to get. The consumer model results in many students that think once they pay their money, they get their education. When in fact, many pay their money and don't get an education because they're too lazy to do the actual work. On the consumer model, it's hard to convince a student that even though he paid his money and came to class, that doesn't automatically mean he'll get a "good" grade.
Sorry for the lengthy post, as someone teaching in higher ed (at the undergrad level) this is something that really bothers me (and I especially don't want to see it creep into the grad level).
Paul...
We are in agreement. I completely support what you just wrote. The best example I have used in the past to illustrate this is Jon Krakauer's book "Into Thin Air." Not sure if you have read it, but his criticism is that Mt. Everest has become a tourism death trap. Entrepreneurs and millionaires think that if they pay the right amount of money, they should be able to find a guide that will guarantee that they will summit.
Unfortunately, these "tourists" do absolutely nothing to physically prepare for the climb and simply expect the guide to do all the work. The result has been an escalation of deaths on the mountain.
So along this line I agree. Students cannot enter the higher education field thinking that their dollar allows them to dictate what the professor should do for them.
HOWEVER... I definitely saw my share of laziness on the part of the professors when I was in seminary. Some of my worst classes were at Harvard where the professor thought that, based on his/her reputation, they could simply walk into class and read to us from their latest book. While I know that this is not ALWAYS true... tenure can breed laziness on the part of a prof and the responsibility lies with the student body to hold him/her accountable.
AGTS Student...
Appreciate your willingness to post. Your incorrect, though, in your last post when you said that local pastors have veto power over where new churches get planted. This was reversed at the DC General Council in 2005. The resolution was passed that a church plant could happen anywhere and at anytime and that local churches did not hold approval powers.
If you sincerely feel God would lead you or a team to start a "residence-based" church there, go for it. If a local church stands in your way... make the 5 minute drive to HQ and ask to see Dr. Wood. I think you have a new advocate in your corner that you are selling short.
Lane Douglas,
Thanks for the correction. I was told that by a professor and accepted it at face value. The next step would be to get the support of the seminary. Thanks for your encouragement.
I also agree that the consumer mentality displayed at Everest is the best example of the worst consumerism can breed. But I do not see any of that in my fellow students. Most of those types of students stop at the undergraduate level anyway. We just want the best education possible. We want to be challenged inside and outside of the classroom. We are willing to work and sacrifice to that end. Most importantly we desire to remain obedient and open.
agts student,
Thanks for the response. I have a feeling we aren't going to convince each other, but I'll give it a go anyway. I must disagree that a graduate degree is a "product" in the way you seem to characterize it. When you pay your tuition, you are not paying to get your M.Div, M.A., etc. You're paying people to guide you in the educational process. For some, this process will be cut short because they learn that they aren't cut out for graduate level work. For others, life prevents them from giving their studies all that they require. And for others, the long and tedious education process is completed and they receive their degree. The consumer model bypasses all those options with the "We paid money so teach us like we want to be taught and give us our diploma!" attitude. Sure many students who get to AGTS are already successful, but they're going to school for a reason (and it shouldn't be to add letters after their name). They are going to school because there is something they are lacking. The professors are able to guide them as they fill in the gaps. If the professors aren't able to do that, then the students should go elsewhere. Yes there is only one AG seminary, but why must AG students attend AG schools? Aren't there plenty of other non-AG schools around (Gordon Conwell, Fuller, Trinity Evangelical, Talbot, Regents). [As an aside, one of the effects of the consumer model is teaching evaluations. As you might expect, I think they're ridiculous. For a humorous critique (or at least what I take to be humorous) of teacher evaluations, visit William Dowling's article at http://rci.rutgers.edu/%7Ewcd/targeval.htm.]
I didn't say that students shouldn't feel good at their school, I said it's not the president's and dean's jobs to ensure that. I never met the president of Talbot (where I did my M.A.), but I knew of his heart for God and people. How? Because it came through the faculty and administrators. Those are the people that the president should have good relationships with. In turn, those faculty members should have great relationships with the students (assuming a smaller school like AGTS and Talbot). I just think it's a bit farfetched to think a president should have coffee and write cards to the students every year. If he has the time to do that, then something is either wrong with the school or the president. I think it's a mistake to assume that a seminary should be run like a church. They're vastly different.
You say that the issue isn't whether the idea of a seminary church is a good idea or not, but I couldn't disagree more. If it's a bad idea, then maybe that's why the faculty and local church leaders don't want it. I think the real issue might be a pastor's fear (as you said), but not of having another competitor. I think many pastors are afraid of having people on staff that have more education than they do. That's an issue that needs to be addressed and one that would remain even if there were a seminary church (how could 300 students realistically be as involved as you seem to want at one church?). Instead of going around the problem, address it.
Finally, I'm not sure what you mean by my perceived "love it or leave it" mentality. If you are referring to my attitude about AGTS, then you're right, but I thought that would be one you would endorse given your affinity for the consumer model. The whole point of a free market consumer economy is that when you don't like one company you're free to go to another. I thought you'd embrace the love it or leave it idea when it comes to a school. Concerning the AG in general, that is not my attitude at all. I see plenty of things that are wrong with the AG, but plenty of things that are right (for an example of one thing I think is wrong, see my paper "A Call to Abstinence?" [at http://faithinformed.wordpress.com/research/] in which I critique the AG's position paper on the usage of alcohol). But I still renew my license because I agree with much of what the AG is doing. My intent in responding to your post was acquiring the truth about the matter. You posted and I disagreed. That means one of us is wrong (not a fan of post-modern ideas). By posting, I have the chance to discern if it is me that is wrong. If so, then I change my beliefs. If not, then I have further evidence to support my position.
Lane,
An unmotivated, tenured, professor has to be a student's worst nightmare. But, in my experience, these are the exception rather than the rule. I hadn't thought about Everest in regards to this issue, but think you're on to something. Have you seen the Discovery Channel's series on climbing Everest? The climbing guide they follow had to rescue at least 2 such individuals (that weren't even a part of his team!).
agts student, you mentioned that you think many of such students stop at the undergraduate level and I agree. However, the influx of lazy ug students that still get their degree has led to a devalued bachelor's degree. That means more of them are filtering into the grad programs whether we like it or not. That's why I want to fight, tooth and nail, that whole mentality. It's a slippery slope that I don't think we can avoid unless the majority of people and institutions hark back to a more classical understanding of education.
Paul F.
Thanks for your response. I don’t think we are as far apart as it seems. (I really enjoyed your position paper on alcohol. But that’s a whole different issue.) Here’s the thing about education being a product at the graduate level: The professors have the knowledge and often the experience. But they have to be able to communicate that knowledge and experience to others effectively. I think any humble servant of God, whether preacher, teacher or candlestick maker, needs to regularly ask themselves the question: How can I do this better? What strategies can I employ or devises can I use to better communicate God’s truth to my listeners or students? The teacher/student relationship is symbiotic. Both sides need to move toward one another. This could not be better modeled than by Jesus.
This has nothing to do with grades. It has to do with effectiveness. We can measure effectiveness in many ways. I don’t claim to know which method is most efficient for measurement but currently at AGTS, it is the exception and not the norm for true learning to be the intended end of our education.
I also agree education is primarily the student’s responsibility. That is why I hope our seminary leaders will engage in the type of change described in this article. Otherwise we will be forced to go to the institutions you listed. But why? Why must we as a movement force Pentecostal students to choose an outside source for our education? All that is required is a little change.
I like to kick around ideas and see which ones stand up to the test. The love it or leave it mentality in essence says accept things the way they are or move on. Well if we do that here, we give up. But if we don't recognize what students are looking for we never get the opportunity to make our case about the benefits of a Spirit-Filled education, life and leadership style. Leadership is about taking people to places they have never been before. AGTS is a good institution that has goals and objectives like no other in its field. I feel like thosevalues and dreams are worth pursuing and wrestling over. The Pentecostal paradigm of faith is too powerful and transforming to abandon in our seminaries. But we must pursue the same type of transformation within of our institutions of learning that we saw occur in our churches during and subsequent to the Azuza revival. I see it as a stewardship issue.
Bottom line, just from this posting interaction, if I was in one of your classes, I feel confident you would not stop teaching until I was done learning. That’s exactly the type of teachers and leaders we long for. Those teachers earn our respect through engagement and relationship.
On the issue of the church being a good idea or a bad one. My point was that no one around the seminary, even the faculty, thinks it’s a bad idea. The point was that they all feel it would be DOA with the district because of the issues already discussed.
agts student,
I think you're right, we're closer than I originally believed. I agree that the student-prof relationship is symbiotic, but past experiences lead me to think that many (if not most) students expect a one-way change (profs change to fit the students) instead of working for a two-way change (both adapt to one another). The unmotivated tenured prof that Lane mentioned reminds me that it's not always the students' fault.
It seems to me that the love it or leave it idea just comes down to a cost-benefit analysis. If the stuff you hate outweighs what you love (and the cost for trying to change it is too high), then bail. If not, then work for change and deal with what you hate in the meantime. I think that would apply to AGTS in particular and the AG in general. So, in some sense I do endorse it, but think the 'bail' option should always be a last resort.
Thanks for reading my paper, if you have any thoughts or comments feel free to post them on my site or email me. (One of many benefits of doing grad work is learning how to value constructive criticism of your work.)
AGTS Student...
One last small point towards your post. It is minuscule, but indicative of larger mindsets in our movement.
You asked the question,
Why must we as a movement force Pentecostal students to choose an outside source for our education?
I want to strongly encourage you to reconsider the whole "inside/outside" language prior to your graduation. As a 3rd generation AG kid, I chose Gordon-Conwell for one reason and one reason only... I felt 100% confident it was the school God was calling me to. It may have been "outside" the AG, but it was not outside God's kingdom.
What I discovered upon my arrival was shocking. Many of my professors, though holding different theological persuasions, were no where near as antagonistic towards Pentecostalism as I had been led to believe. I also discovered inside of me a pride and arrogance I had did not realize was there until I was in an environment with non-Pentecostal believers. God engineered it so that I ended up in an apartment with 2 Presbyterians and a Catholic. I cannot tell you the humility that God breathed into my life as these guys showed me how my language was hurtful to them.
AGTS is a great school, and I am glad you are receiving the education you are. But don't think of other schools as "outside" of our movement. They are simply different. We need to learn how to change our language and quit thinking ourselves as somehow elite in God's army.
Lane Douglas,
I couldn't agree more. I certainly don't consider myself or this movement to be a part of God's "elite" army. Nothing could be further from my perspective or experience. I, like you, have significantly benefited from brothers and sisters of different brands of faith who have re-shaped my view of God and His mission on earth. Cross polination is a must. We do not have a corner on all the good ideas, traditions, beliefs or experiences. We must humbly recognize our place within the larger body while fully validating the role other faiths and traditions bring to the table.
My point regarding the seminary is that we only have one. It is worth striving to improve for all the reasons discussed above.
Having said all that I wonder why university and seminary professors are required to attend only AG churches in order to teach. One would think if we desire the gene pool of ideas to grow wider and deeper we may want to learn from the larger body. Do we embrace diversity or just the idea? Just a thought.
First of all, I am a third year AGTS student, and I disagree with some of “agts student’s” views. Some of his statements are incorrect.
•AGTS does maintain a thorough database of alumni, including where they are and what they are doing. See the Rapport: http://www.agts.edu/rapport/2008winter/index.html Some alumni may not provide contact information to AGTS, but they do try.
•It is up to the student to get involved in the local church, not necessarily the job of the seminary to do this. Most students are involved in some form of ministry in a local church. However, there is a stigma with many local pastors, but this is a national issue with higher education in the AG.
•Chapel – other than deciding who preaches, they are primarily student lead. From worship leading, sometimes preaching, and other aspects of chapel the student body is involved if they desire.
There are many other points I could add, however, my goal of this post is to say not all students agree with the view of the “agts student.” Most student I know here are happy with AGTS, apart from the normal gripes. If you do have issues with AGTS, most faculty and administration have an open door policy.
To AGTS #2: Thanks for voicing your take, but I have to agree more with AGTS #1.
However, to AGTS #1: Go plant a church. Under the Vision for Transformation guidelines, you can pretty much plant a new AG church right across the street from an existing one. Don't worry about the District or others. If they were going to support you to begin with, then who cares if they ignore you now.
Rally some troops, pray about, plan what will happen to the church when you and the others graduate, and go for it. As a church planter, I can tell you $$ and the support of your section/District is the least of your worries.
Amendment: If they WERE NOT going to support you to begin with, then who cares if they ignore you now.
Sorry, I typed too fast and hit the "Publish" button too fast.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
AGTS student #1 hit a home run. He(she) encapsulated my experience at AGTS. I just wish someone would have had the courage to address these issues when I attended.
Students were relegated to singing and playing instruments during chapel. Rarely did a student speak or preach.
I think the point about the alumni is an excellent insight. If asked I would love to give feedback now after beeing in ministry a while what I think was helpful and what wasn't or what I need more of that wasn't covered in enough depth.
I think AGTS is worth fighting for too. Keep talking.
Hey, take the AGTS issue to the AGTS web site will ya! If you guys can't discuss these issues in your own forum you have more problems than you realize.
Unbelievable but 800 young soldiers of Burkina Faso have been trained and equiped by the US army in 2007 and will be sent to DARFOUR (SOUDAN). The world is changing day by day and any change in Springfield should affect the World AG Fellowship.
Merry christmas from Ouagadougou Burkina Faso West Africa!!!!!!!!!
The AGTS Debate Rages...
...Concerning starting a "seminary church" in Springfield. While the rules may have changed Nationally concerning starting churches, So. Missouri and the Springfield Section is somewhat resistant to the idea of more/new churches here in Springfield.
…Maybe rightly so. With the highest concentration of AG churches in any metro area (anywhere?) it would be easy to argue that more churches are not the answer. In fact, many of the existing churches were started by students of our colleges here in town.
…Maybe a better plan would be to have a system that would place interested seminary students alongside pastors in the existing churches here in town. There are some 27 local churches and some 75 in the Springfield sections. This would provide on-the-job training, much needed assistance to the churches, and a great opportunity for seminary students to “try their wings” and find out that the issues in seminaries are different from those in the marketplace/churches.
…I’ll anticipate your objections. But local pastors would resist the input, ideas, education….etc. Perhaps there could be a training and application process for pastors who would like to participate (as well as for seminary students). Having served as a senior pastor in Springfield for a decade, I can attest to both the benefits (great) and the frustrations (great) of involving theology/ministry students in church ministry. Overall, I do not think we have an option—it’s too great of an opportunity to pass up.
…Another option that I am pursuing is to ask a local church to host a unique service that is targeted at a different demographic than is presently being reached by the church’s existing ministries. My goal is to plant a “service” that can serve as a training and launching platform for students desiring to plant newer model churches in other communities.
…Those are my thoughts. By the way, I support Dr. Byron and his staff at AGTS. Everything can always be improved (just wait till you get out there and become the target of criticism)—but the desire to innovate, and to establish a unique culture at AGTS has been impressive under the current leadership’s tenure at AGTS. Bright days are ahead!
Another forum? There is no other forum to discuss problems with AGTS. This is why AGTS 1 has said it in this forum. Even if there was another forum, would the prof’s and admin listen? Unlikely,students can vote with our student fees and that is why the AGTS population is going down and the students who stay at AGTS are paying the price. Students are voting, by going to other seminaries!
AGTS students do have opportunities to preach in chapel, but who comes to those chapels? Why would one student want to hear a sermon from another student unless it was a class lecture? If I have to go to a chapel then I want to hear someone with experience, not another student in the same bubble I am in.
Dear AGTS student, I am really, really late but...I agree wholeheartedly that AGTS should be part of the discussion on change/transformation in the A/G. AGTS is not a perfect organization; we have our fair share of issues needing attention. Neither are we clueless nor naive about what it will take to be all God has called us to be. Your comments cut a fairly large swath of topics. I'd like to talk more about those crucial issues with you. I look forward to a conversation.
Byron D. Klaus President, AGTS
417-268-1010
bklaus@agts.edu
I certainly hope that AGTS Student will take up Dr. Klaus's invitation to conversation. The leaders of our national institutions are opening a door for dialogue, and it would be a shame if, instead of walking through it, we decided merely to post anonymously.
I too hope that agts student takes Dr. Klaus on his offer. It's quite funny how similar this is to when I was an undergrad at SAGU. A buddy of mine and I were upset with some things at the school and, printed some anonymous leaflets airing our concerns (we too were afraid of retribution). After the 3rd or 4th "issue", President Bridges brought it up during a chapel and said something like, "If you're willing to print these up, why not come to my office and talk to me about what is bothering you."
My buddy and I decided to do just that.
Guess what? We had an great opportunity to voice our concerns with the individual most able to address them. We were able to tell him why we felt we needed to remain anonymous, why we didn't want to talk with our dorm pastor, men's dean, or student congress, and he was able to share with us the school's reasons for doing things a certain way. I think he learned about some things lacking on the administration's part (open communication with students) and we learned that they know a lot more about how to run a school than we do.
Though I now think I would've gone about things differently, I'm really glad that we ended up being able to meet with President Bridges. It changed my entire outlook concerning him and SAGU. I pray that agts student has a similar experience.
I pastor in Springfield and have had some great experience with AGTS students interning or volunteering in ministry at the church. One student is presently helping me as a research assistant -- something new for me.
The largest part of my experience, however, has been with the military chaplain candidates who are needing ongoing ministry experience while studying. Wish we could involve more, but I have been impressed with who we have had. The seminary has gained a national reputation for its work in chaplaincy.
I would concur with many of Steve Smallwood's observations. Some very progressive things have happened at AGTS the past few years in the face of some daunting obstacles and ongoing challenges.
Dr. Klaus's invitation to dialogue is consistent with his spirit and inclusive leadership style. As a leader I find it hard to get everything right and harder when people are indirect with their understandably legitimate frustrations. I am hopeful for a growing culture of both dialogue and safety in our movement.
To anonymous 7:49 p.m.
Who is asking and why? Is this or is it not a blog?
I would like to to focus less on ourselves and more on them...to see us serve as Christ served...less politics and more action in showing Christ's love to the unchurched. Realize that church as we have known it for so many years may no longer be reaching those who are disenfranchised with the church, those who feel too sinful to enter the four walls of the church as an institution, those who are truly hurting and in need of hope. It's almost as if we had it right in the beginning and somehow lost our original intent somehow over the years...Our mission should be entirely about them...
Sounds to me like AGTS #1 hit a soft spot. He reminds me of many of our Old Testament Prophets. And just like them those targeted are coming after the messenger instead of listening to the voice of truth in the message.
Run for the hills AGTS student! God will take care of you just as he did your brothers before you. God speed.
Sounds to me like AGTS #1 hit a soft spot. He reminds me of many of our Old Testament Prophets. And just like them those targeted are coming after the messenger instead of listening to the voice of truth in the message.
Run for the hills AGTS student! God will take care of you just as he did your brothers before you. God speed.
dr. c., Who seems to be coming after the messenger? Obviously the difference is agts student is delivering his own message. If that message is true, then we should take heed (and not 'kill the messenger'), but shouldn't we at least figure out if the message is indeed true? If it's not, then we should destroy the message (and still not kill the messenger), but I haven't seen anyone on here attacking him. Remember there is a difference between attacking the person (ad hominems) and attacking the message (and if the message is true, as with the OT prophets, it'll withstand the attacks).
I join GPW and Paul in encouraging ALL of these AGTS students to take Dr. Klaus up on his offer. The blog has served it's purpose in getting you an audience... now go the next step.
As I wrote in my post earlier up this list... when we felt we had grievances towards a Greek prof years ago at GCTS, we took it to the school administration. I personally led the team and was petrified at possible ramifications. But it was the right thing to do rather than grumble every class.
Make the call...
Dr. C:
Doesn't the Bible instruct us not to believe every spirit, but to test the spirits to see whether they are from God? So if we push back a little on the "prophetic" words of AGTS student, are we simply doing our biblical duty? And anyway, no one's persecuting him/her. Heck, the president of AGTS gave AGTS student his contact info and invited him/her to a conversation. Why don't you post your contact info so I can call you?
GPW
Bravo, Dr. Klaus!
Thanks for inviting the students in for a chat. (Guys, take him up on the offer!)
I had posted previously on this blog regarding another subject, and was asked by Dr. Wood to call him. I did, and it was FANTASTIC!!!
Contact the man and watch God move...
BTW, this Blog is doing a great job bringing attention to our ranks.
GPW, Paul...
Can I recommend you delete the post with the request for the anonymous blogger to reveal their identity?
The possibility exists that someone's name has been brought into play that may have absolutely no idea it is sitting out there. Without their permission, we should not let it float like that IMO. Since the request came from a source we can't verify, we don't know their motives.
I think, as a general rule, bloggers should not bring someone else's name into play unless that person has given you permission to do so. Otherwise, this is equal to talking behind their backs. This goes double for anonymous bloggers.
Lane
I agree with Lane. Please delete that comment.
As a graduating AGTS student (MDiv) and also an employee at AGTS, I feel like these critiques (or as Dr. C so strangely called them "prophetic messages") probably have some measures of validity. However, lobbing rocks from behind an anonymous shield doesn't seem to be accomplishing much. Not only so, I found them very inaccurate in many cases. I don't know if I'd have the patience to lead like Dr. Klaus. He's willing to take everyone with him, not just change things for the complainers.
I find it extremely commendable of AGTS leadership to extend an invitation for dialogue in the face of generalized and even personal negative critiques.
And Dr. C. (which might as well be anonymous), your comment seems to imply that you don't trust that our leaders will take our concernes seriously and that it may even backfire on us. Personally, I know some have experienced just that. But this isn't always the case. If we are to truly contribute towards change I think we who care should be willing to take that risk occasionally.
At the moment, I see a lot of talk about change, a number of accusations thrown at one of our academic institutions (including faculty and administration), and a great deal of fear demonstrated by the anonymity of individuals making negative comments about the seminary (both current students and alumni).
I just completed my first semester at AGTS and I am very happy that I came here. In no way am I going to say everything is perfect in our Fellowship, including the seminary. That is because people are involved in the whole thing.
As far as the request of the identity of agts student is concerned, I can understand not wanting to toss someone's name into the mix. Especially if they have nothing to do with the situation. At the same time, I understand the request that someone who is bold enough to make such statements should also be bold enough to identify themselves. Given their lack of willingness to do so, I also doubt their willingness to accept the invitation of Dr. Klaus to discuss these issues.
The thought which comes to my mind is whether those who complain will actually do something besides talk or if they think their work is done and the rest of the job is up to someone else.
Well Said! Dan and Joel,
The problem however with these types of communication is in the translation. It is difficult to convey the attitude of the person writing or in what spirit. All these types of communications have to be taken with a grain of salt. I don't see how anyone communicating without using their real identity can contribute to effectively addressing possible problems or solutions.
I was encouraged by Dr. Wood’s initial blog about leading change. I am proud to be involved in an organization that is interested in promoting positive change for the future. I think the first step toward positive change is creating an environment where leaders can openly dialogue without fear of reprisal. Without that basic element of trust, any leadership team will fail to achieve its objectives and ultimate mission.
As a former pastor and AGTS student, I have found that leaders and lay people commonly discuss issues amongst themselves, but are too afraid to speak to those who have the authority to facilitate change. Those who have the authority to initiate change are usually the same people who control credentials, salaries, reputations and career opportunities. People are hesitant to respond openly when their security is at stake. When security is placed in tangible things rather than in Christ we tend to avoid healthy conflict and engage in politics to achieve personal success. Often, the dialogue itself becomes a threat and offense is taken. A lack of open, honest debate is a prime indicator of dysfunction in any family or organization.
Although several bloggers noted that they have never been directly pressured or silenced, I see evidence of an atmosphere of fear and distrust on many levels. Therefore I feel it’s inappropriate and troubling to try and identify bloggers who wish to remain anonymous. I couldn't disagree more with Joel and Dan regarding anonymous bloggers. Those who choose to blog anonymously have reasons for doing so. It is in no way a sign of a lack of boldness or willingness to do the difficult work of change. Sometimes the most effective way to blog is anonymously. (I often wonder about the motives of those who use their names.) We should focus our attention on the issues rather than people, positions or personalities. Anonymous blogger 7:49 pm’s comment seems like an attempt at intimidation to me.
Dr. Wood mentioned a task force aimed at enhancing the attractiveness of A/G credentials to men and women with the call of God on their lives. I think this is a step in the right direction. I hope the task force plans to dialogue with AGTS students. I have been involved in many informal discussions on this very subject. Leadership will gain valuable insight into the problem of dwindling numbers if you intentionally create a culture where people can freely discuss their observations and concerns. I sincerely hope those in leadership not only ask the right questions, but truly desire to hear the answers.
I enjoyed reading the blog entries regarding the issues and felt needs of AGTS students. They were thought provoking and appear to be seasoned with love and respect as Dr. Wood originally suggested. I benefit from the different vantage points offered. Some of my own assumptions have been challenged and/or corrected. Thank you to everyone who posts your unique perspective.
I appreciated Dr. Klaus’s offer to meet with student #1 for further discussion. I agree this shows an open door to much needed dialogue. At the same time, I would very much have enjoyed reading a response from Dr. Klaus, the faculty and/or Woods regarding the issues raised. Encouragement by both Klaus and Woods to take the discussion off-line ends the public dialogue rather than inspiring it. Wasn’t the original intent of this blog to create dialogue? From my perspective, AGTS student #1 has initiated an interesting and thought provoking discussion. We seem to be losing sight of the goal here. It is not time to point fingers, but to simply debate the issues. It is extremely important to remember that the issues brought up by one individual are often a concern for many who remain silent.
As a leader, I recognize the reluctance to inviting detailed discussion in a public setting. However, people need a place where they can be heard and seek understanding.
I agree with Jim Bradford who hopes for a growing culture of both dialogue and safety in our movement. In my experience, this is needed and essential to future success. I believe God is at work in our midst and we must do everything within our power to lead in such a way that brings Him glory and honor.
I agree, let's get that name off of this blog.
I am a last year M.Div. student at AGTS, I also work at AGTS, and on TOP of it all, I serve as president of the Student Advisory Council in my final year here. (And I do have MUCH more than a ceremonial position incidently.)
AGTS rocks.
I have invested much here, and I feel that AGTS has invested much in me.
I'm not here looking for perfection, I'm here looking for what I can learn from people who have experience and knowledge that I lack. Even if I don't agree with teaching styles or policies-whatever...I can still learn. In fact, I think that attribute should characterize every season of our lives!
If there is something I would like to see change...well...I will try to be the first to roll up my sleeves and be one who helps make it happen. I love facilitating open minded discussion about change! But talking about is only half of the picture. Let's be willing to be part of the solution instead of tossing anonymous grenades and running away.
Isn't that what a servant leader is anyway? To be an agent of change in all circumstances, good and bad?
At the end of the day, we're still Christians, and should act as such to each other. The world is watching, and that's how they know we are truly His disciples. (John 13:35)
All of this chiming in has forced me to do the same. "Chime, Chime Chime!!!"
Can we get back to the original intent of the blog... to discuss change and not nitpicking over who is saying what anonymously. The posts are out there, do with them as you choose.
Paul Wood, thank you for your thoughts. We must be willing to hear the voices of our insiders if we intend to maintain effectiveness. (Dr. Klaus has made an icredible offer to dialogue about the issues facing the seminary. Take him up on it.) In the mean time, let's take Paul Wood up on the same opportunity to discuss change in the AG.
I would like to see if the headquarters would be willng to sit and discuss issues with many of the young leaders (mentioned by AGTS Student) that we are discussing and philosophising over at the seminary. The truth is, I don't know if we necessarily know that our thoughts and ideas have worth at the top. In truth, our fellowship is run congregationally, but in order to have a voice, you must have experience, clout, etc. That is frustrating when you consider that many of us are well educated, yet seemingly never listened to or sought after for our insights. The truth is, while we haven't been on the leading edge, we have been the led. As a result, we know those "playbook" things that we hope to never replicate in our own ministries! However, sometimes it feels that to speak to the contrary is blasphemy!
So, (per the original post) we have a sense of urgency - we know that Jesus is coming and people don't know him! Now, use us as part of the powerful guiding coalition. As Earl Creps encourages, will the AG be willing to be reverse mentored by some of us up and comers? If nothing else, let us vent! Ha!
Well, there's my chime! Happy Christmas!
Interesting....
all of the bloggers who choose to remain anonymous have something corrective to say to AGTS. Everyone who signs their name works there and ignores the original issues while complimenting their bosses. Yeah, there is some major dysfunction over there. As a CBC student looking at seminaries I want to thank the original AGTS student for letting me see not only the issues but follow the responses. Trinity, Dallas, Regent and Gordon Conwell just moved up a notch.
P.S. Just read Mike. He seems to have some guts.
To CBC student above:
Nice conclusion to draw, but it does not seem to be air tight.
Not all positive statements regarding AGTS were from employees.
Secondly, it is also possible they have better insights to the character of their leaders/bosses since they work closer to them. Otherwise, you might be seeing anonymous negative comments from employees...
NO ONE is saying AGTS is perfect! (read that again if you have to).
NO ONE is saying students can't speak up if they think there is a problem.
But what Shannon said above...I agree. At the end of the day, we ARE CHRISTIANS (and even leaders in training) so if we can't learn to BIBLICALLY address problems with people, then i guess the anonymous blog post is all the further you'll get.
Who cares whether it is anonymous or not as long as it is relevant? Someone may sign their name and I have no idea whether it is their real name or not? Somebody signing Doug or Shanon or whoever doesn't tell me anything about them and it doesn't mean they are better than someone who posts anonymously. Get a grip people!
By the way....I need you all to vote for me in the primaries!
Mike Huckabee...
That points to and definitely highlights the ineffective nature of a blog/email/IM to resolve a conflict or issue. It doesn't matter if their name is stated or it is anonymous.
Just because a computer screen is there doesn't mean it removes the authority of scripture that tells us to speak directly to the person we need to dialogue with and resolve issues.
uggggghhh.... I think some of you are a little lost confused or both.
Nobody has been unchristian that I've read except maybe the guy who's naming names. Why would anyone consider this dialog unbiblical? Or are we saying any criticism of leadership is unbiblical? Hold on..... I think I just heard Luther turn over in his grave...We hold in high esteem heros of the faith who challenged the establishment in antiquity but tend to overlook or drown out any modern contrarian voices.
It's time to grow up or wake up...these aren't "rocks" or "grenades." Give me a break. That kind of inflammatory language comes out when someone is trying to change the story or deflect attention. It is a classical political move we see going on right now in the respective primary races. Please... let's not link ourselves to spin doctors and character assasination just because we are weak on the issues. Stick with the truth. I hear it leads to freedom.
No one except Paul F., Smallwood, Mike, Agts #1 and Another Purposely Anonymous voice seem to be trying to re-focus everyone, even those in charge, to deal with the issues out front, in this forum, so everyone can benefit. In my experience students bring these kinds of things up after other means have been attempted to no avail.
Everyone knows anonymous forums are essential. That is why we have whistle-blower laws and secret informants who receive protection. Why? because they need it. Certainly religious institutions have lost any claim to the moral high ground. To expect a student to blindly walk into a potential buzz saw is naive and foolish. The difference between an A and a C on a term paper is overwhelmingly a subjective determination. I think AGTS#1 wouldn't be brave but stupid to risk anything on an institution that has already revealed it's desire to take this issue behind closed doors. Take Dr. C advice head for the hills.
And to the "brave" guys getting paychecks from AGTS or those trying to impress the administration by sticking their names on hollow defenses without any reference to the issues mentioned: stop sucking up. You aren't fooling anyone. Your message would be heard better if you were....anonymous. Imagine that. CBC student is on to something.
Fianlly, Mike makes a good point, if the AG or AGTS thinks the issues presented are sooo inappropriate they would pull the plug. But I am amazed they suggested the conversation go underground especially since the students seem to be saying they have no current vehicle to voice concerns and THAT IS THE POINT OF A BLOG.
This forum has devolved to talking about talking. Face the issues. It appears to me AGTS must start at the very bottom of the process of change. That would be learning how to communicate. For a bunch of preachers who earn a living by talking that's a stagering admission of incompetance. But you have to start somewhere. (Sorry. Is that too honest to be christian?)
Way to correct Mr Huckabee about resolving conflict with names while posting it anonymously...WOW!
Glory!
Anonymous 6:57...
I don't think Huckabee was corrected on anything, since the person who responded to him said name or no name, neither matter. GLORY! ;-)
I think no one is close to on-topic anymore.
Let's move on. AGTSers need to go start their own blog if they want to keep tackling this. Maybe the anonymous #1 above should think about that then.
Blog is open to everyone. AGTS posters...post here all you want
Fun fun fun. This is just like the last snipe hunt I was on. How about putting the ball back on the court? What about mentoring....anything going to happen? How we doing on setting up a forum for student feedback? What methods are being considered to measure effective learning? Is anything going to change or is this just a waste of time or a creative way of keeping the students amused during Christmas break?
Anonymous 6:53, I agree that there is a necessity for anonymity at times, but find it very hard to believe that Dr. Klaus has impure motives in wanting to talk with agts student 1 off the blogs. One of the complaints of this student is that the administrators are not accessible. This is wide open accessibility. Further, what would happen if Dr. Klaus threatened or intimidated that student? Well, presumably, he'd get right back on this blog and let us know. Because Dr. Klaus made the invitation very public, there is already an amount of accountability. (And for those that might think I'm sucking up, I've never met/communicated with Dr. Klaus and after finishing my undergrad at SAGU, never been to an AG school.)
Re: anonymous posters -- I don't mind it at all, but would prefer you to just make up a handle (like Mike Huckabee did) to make it easier to refer back to previous comments/other threads. Of course someone could spoof another's handle, but they can do the same now. It'd be nice to know anonymous 3:56 (for example) is the same anonymous 1:19 from another thread. As we get to know one another better, it'll help to set the context of a post within your other beliefs.
Anonymous 6:53
You are right. Get to the issues. We have needed this conversation for so long.
I work at AGTS and I can only report what I see and hear...
The moment this blog was discovered a hunt began by members of the administration for the first student author. It scared alot of us and it was very disappointing. I must say these were intimidating conversations. All of a sudden it felt like none of us were friends anymore.
To all AGTS students: I know how hard all of you work and I watch how diligently you are trying to obey God's call for yourselves and many of your families. Please be careful when considering exposing yourselves. I am saddened to see how men I respect responded to what appears to me to be honest issues we have faced for years. We all make mistakes. But our actions send powerful signals. Let's all take a deep breath and remember why we are here and who we serve.
Thanks and please keep talking. Go back and read the original conversations. THey were not mean spirited. Listen to Amused. Amused seems to be reminding everyone to lighten up a little andget back to the things that can help us all change.
I'm praying this will all work out for good.
AGTS student- I'm praying for you especially young man. Listen to the Lord. He will guide you. You've done a good thing.
Concerned...
Could you give us some concrete, physical examples of what you mean by "a hunt began?" It's not that we don't believe you, but those of us on the outside need to know that what you are saying has credibility and is not just your perception.
Was a memo issued to students warning them not to post? Was a request made in chapel for the student to "confess?" What conversations are you referring to when you say they were "intimidating?" Why were you guys scared?
Lane
Ok. Mentoring…Well, I think that spiritual formation/discipleship/mentoring is one of the most important aspects of leadership development. The most important leadership trait is integrity/ Godly character. Assuming many of the students in seminary will pursue ministry careers, this is essential not only for personal formation, but for their ability to disciple sheep in their future flocks. How are leaders developed? By modeling on the part of leadership, opportunities for students to try, and learn from mistakes, and finally, evaluation and coaching. Then, more modeling, trying and evaluating…. (Obviously prayer and the Holy Spirit are necessary components, but that goes without saying, right?)
Paul F. inspired an interesting question, should the seminary be run more like a church? I know it’s an academic institution, but it is also an institution primarily aimed at developing and equipping ministry leaders, not just thinking heads. Future ministers need a balance of academic learning and hands on training. Maybe in some ways, it should be run more like a church.
Chapel opportunities for students: This doesn’t need to be limited to preaching and worship. Not everyone is a preacher or musician. I believe the school and the church could do more to intentionally provide opportunities for every spiritual gift to be developed and utilized. In my experience there are gifted people occupying pews that are afraid to try. I have had some success with creating smaller incremental “faith steps” that lead people into greater areas of responsibility. For example: identify 5 people with the gift of teaching and get to know them and their personal level of competence and obstacles. They may simply be afraid of crowds. They see that the only opportunity to teach in the church involves standing before 500 people. They will NEVER jump that far. Create a situation where they teach only a handful…then a dozen, then fifty. Provide coaching, feedback, encouragement and resources along the way as needed. Be their biggest fan. Before you know it, you have raised people who can then duplicate themselves in the life of others. Of course, they’ll need coaching on how to coach at that point. We need to have a long-term perspective on the future development of the church.
Let’s consider revising our thinking. What if we begin with the gifts and ask how we can incorporate and develop each of them instead of looking at the tasks we need to accomplish and trying to fill slots. I would love to see the entire body moving as a whole unit. Sounds a lot like unity doesn’t it? Perhaps we could eventually get to the place where we start looking like a well trained army AND a family.
Back to AGTS…Students could be involved with the welcome/opening statements/prayer portion of the service. Leading others to the throne of grace is an honor and a skill that needs to be developed. Sensing and following the Spirit’s leading in this setting would provide valuable experience. Why not have students with gifts of intercession and faculty members standing side by side praying for those who want prayer? They both lay hands, they both speak into the lives of others together. What about the counseling students? After chapel, there could be faculty/student teams that counsel and pray. Students can serve communion and LEAD communion. Students facilitating the service will quickly learn how to handle movements of the spirit and what to do with a “word” given appropriately and inappropriately. I hope this is food for thought not only for those involved with the seminary, but every pastor and small group leader as well.
I personally feel that I am on my own here. I have Jesus, the ultimate example of course. I have moved here to attend AGTS in my best attempt to follow God’s leading. I left security, ministry, comfort and an amazing network of godly men and women who seemed eager to walk beside me on this road. I would love to see AGTS and the denomination take a more assertive approach to the practical aspects of formation and leadership development. Some of this may occur in a formal class setting, but that should be one component of a multi-faceted plan.
Steve Smallwood offered some great suggestions. I would love to hear more about a cooperative effort between local pastors and students. In fact, I want to know which church he is pastoring. He seems like a guy I could follow. Let me know, I might just show up on Sunday morning.
Another thought… I am not so sure about an AGTS only forum. I really value hearing from those who have a different perspective and decades of experience. You are probably best equipped to help us get where we need to go.
Hunt?--I thought AGTS was supportive of FutureAG blog...They funded lunch in Indianapolis, gave us a book or two (Or NCU did?) and a jump drive!
Pres. Klaus is from Orange County--a pretty innovative region of AGdom. As an Evangel educator and a DMin grad from AGTS I have found our institutions open to innovation and best practices. They want the Kingdom to be healthy with growth...
another purposively anonymous voice (the end of your 'name' got cut off),
First, I really appreciate the tone of your comment. When I argue with other grad students in the phil program at OU we often say things like "Well, that's just wrong and here's why..." That's usually okay when you know the other people personally and are talking face to face. Sometimes that carries over to this blog where no one knows me or my intent. I'm going to try to start posting (and hope others do too) in a way more similar to you.
Now that I've buttered you up, here's why it's just wrong to treat a seminary like a church (haha). Seriously, one of the reasons I think they should be run differently is that they have different purposes. There are many different views on what a church is to do (see previous posts on this site), but I think people would agree that a seminary is for training church leaders.
At a church you have all sorts of issues that just don't come up at a seminary. What to do for youth camp, how much money to spend on VBS, should you expect people making use of the food pantry to be accountable (i.e. get to a point where they don't need it), etc. None of these things are bad (in fact, they're good), but they're different from the issues a seminary faces. A seminary is concerned with hiring outstanding profs that can teach and train, making sure the school has a good reputation in both 'practical ministry' and 'academic ministry' (if not, then why would students want to go there), and figuring out how to keep costs down given the rising cost of faculty health care, electricity, journal subscriptions, etc.
I think there will be some overlap because AGTS is a school for training ministers (e.g. AGTS should still be concerned that it is existing for God's glory and not man's), but I think they're still too different to be ran in the same way.
Just out of curiosity, are there AGTS students that have no desire to work at a church? In other words, does AGTS have programs for students that simply want to teach at a university level and not within some type of church ministry?
Hi Dr. Klaus. I’m glad you gave your invitation, but why not have an AGTS blog where student can voice opinions? AGTS student 1 is right when he says that the wonderful surveys we fill out are quite silly. I remember taking time to purposely fill them out my first semester. Now I know that it doesn't really matter.
I was going to leave my name. I really was. But, then one of my fellow peers scared me. I heard there was a hunt and meetings at AGTS about this guy. And so I imagine at this very moment there are student spies reading my words and trying to analyze who I am. So that administration can put a mark by my name.
Here is some irony: Some of the very students that have identified themselves and criticized those being anonymous, are the same people that have openly bashed the spiritual formation class. Interesting. So, the message is be courageous and give your name... as long as you compliment the organization.
Please tell me, where is the place where we can voice our complaints? Because the fact of the matter is, I’ve never met anyone in the administration.
The truth is I have very few complaints. I like my professors, and my experience. But, if we are really looking toward change, which is what the original post was about, then let’s do it! There are always things that can change. I’m an AGTS student, and that’s the way I see it.
I just could not let this one go without posting. Having just spent the last 10 years of my life in Higher Education (Undergrad at Vanguard...SCC..Class of 1999 and then MA and PHD from Regent University) and now my husband is in his 2nd year at AGTS in the Counseling Program, I have seen my fair share of joys and let downs in education.
First, AGTS has been nothing but gracious to both me and my husband. We came to AGTS because we felt the Lord lead us here, but it was nothing short of a miracle. My husband has been healed emotionally and spiritually in his calling to counseling and higher education. We have been treated with respect and a personal touch that is unmatched in all of our experience except for maybe my time at Vanguard.
Second, the level of educational excellence and mentoring that my husband has received is unmatched. I often fight jealous feelings of wanting to put down my dissertation and come to the Seminary and study. It has been such a blessing to us to see Intellectuals using their God-given talents and callings to challenge and encourage their students to both learn and be critical thinkers.
My husband never believed he was capable of moving on to a doctoral program, but with the mentoring and encouragement of the faculty, staff, and administration at AGTS, he now feels that he can not only do it but that this is what God has been preparing him for all along.
Third, I have personally benefitted from our time at AGTS. The staff in the library have been nothing but helpful in my own research. Theology faculty have assisted in my dissertation research and been open to sit on my committee when another outside reader had to step away. Dr. Klaus and others have helped me make connections to key people I need to speak with concerning my research. I could not have made it this far away from Regent in many other capacities without the assistance of the staff and faculty at AGTS.
Finally, I have not had the chance to come to every chapel because of my "day" job, but those I have attended have been student led both in music and in speaking, faculty led and guest speakers. I have appreciated them all and the presence of the Spirit was just what I needed for a deep breath on that day.
AGTS is a jewel in the Assemblies Higher Education realm. But I also want to point out an observation both my husband and I have struggled to deal with...the lack of preparation on the part of students for higher learning. I could go on and on about the consumer mentality of students...we dealt with it all the time at Regent, too, however, the point I want to make is about what students need to do and know before they decide on higher education...
A Seminary and a Graduate School are institutions of HIGHER learning. This is not Sunday school and it is not even undergrad. This is a place where you are going to have to WORK and to THINK. It is going to be hard because you will be stretched. You are right, not everyone is a great teacher and sometimes Ph.D.'s are simply degrees of perseverance and not of knowledge, but if you are not prepared to enter graduate level work, then don't. Too often, Professors have to bring their teaching "down" to accomidate those who are not prepared. This is unfortunate for those who are, but take it as an opporunity to be refreshed and reminded of what you may already know rather than dismissing it and work with your student colleagues to "bring them up to speed" so the Professor can focus on stretching you both.
I applaude AGTS, Evangel, and even CBC (I adjunct at the last two) for continuing to raise the standard of higher education amongst A/G students. It is the time! I would give my right arm for a full-time job at these institutions because I believe in the need for true higher education and they are working hard to deliver.
We recently had a friend leave AGTS because he said he just wanted to study the bible, he didn't want to do all this "academic stuff." In a spirit of as much love as I could muster, my response was that he should have looked for a good bible study--not graduate education.
I am so thankful to Dr. Wood for his renewed focus on Higher Education and to the entire AGTS community for breathing life into my husband. I praise God for this transformation. It is an answer to many years of prayer.
Before you simply write off AGTS or complain, I would look at what I am contributing to my education (more than just my money) and see if the reflection in the mirror is really the issue and not the Institution of Higher Learning.
I really appreciate this forum as well. This blog has been a research gem and also a personal joy because of my love for our fellowship and dialogue. Thank you.
BTW...I am only publishing with a nickname because I cannot get my login to work...not because I do not want to reveal my name.
~Joy Qualls, ABD
Springfield, MO
So I can't believe I just heard about this conversation, but I have been sick. I am an AGTS student graduating in may, a HQ employee, and an SAGU grad. I was very worried when I first came to AGTS because I thought it would be SAGU all over again, a complete "towing of the party line." But I have thoroughly enjoyed my time at AGTS. It has fostered the opportunity for tremendous spiritual and intellectual growth for me.
Like everything else though, it is what you make it. Since being at AGTS, I have had opportunities to participate in dialogue at the National Council of Churches with other young scholars, as well as at the Society of Pentecostal Studies. From what I have observed, I could not be happier with my decision to attend AGTS. We have a great institution. We have opportunities to hear the heart of ministry that other institutions don't have.
Do I wish some things were different? Yeah, of course. I wish there were more students preaching in chapel. I wish we had more of a community service orientation. I wish we supported more of our national church ministries, i.e CMA, Royal Rangers, Girls Ministries, etc. But it is what you make it. If you want a relationship with a professor, go have one. I dont know of one professor that if you want time with them doesn't want time with you. Have I had problems with professors? Absolutely! Have I had some that I think should never teach again? Without question. But things are what you make it.
If you want the AG to be better, make it better. If you want AGTS to be better, make it better. I am 27 years old, and single...two HUGE bullets against me in the church world, but if I want to see things change, I am going to work to see that change take place.
I appreciate everything everyone has said. Hopefully I have added to the conversation.
38 and single. I think my bullets are bigger!
(I often wonder about the motives of those who use their names.)
me too...
So what exactly do you wonder concerning the motives of those that use their real name? (Do those thoughts apply to those that use a last initial?) Just so you know, I've already started to develop a friendship with two people because of this blog and their willingness to use their real names. Also, I know Beaty pretty well and because we've both used our real names, we can continue the conversation in other settings. Maybe it's a bad idea to allow your cynicism to creep in to every nook and cranny.
I am posting under a nickname so that my comments will not be misconstrued as 'sucking up' (how demeaning is that!). I have a PhD from a secular university in a secular, nontheological discipline. If I had approached my education with some of the attitudes I am hearing in this blog, I would have washed out.
In fact my academic experience is that they TRY to wash you out. It's survival of the fittest -- Darwinian academia if you will. You can't depend on hand-holding to make it. But it makes you better.
I view it as the academic version of trials and obstactles in spiritual life. You either complain and gripe, or you grow.
For seven years at this world class University, the head of my my not-so-large department never once spoke to me until I initiated a conversation a month before graduating. Unfortunately he spent most of that conversation chewing me out for my post-university career choices (ie ministry). So much for touchy feely affirmation.
I got a very good education in his department, but it wasn't easy -- extremely high academic expectations, a sink or swim attitude by some profs, academicians with poor communication skills, teachers too busy and distracted with research to pay any attention to their classes (turning them over to international students who lectured with English you could barely understand), tests that covered material you were never taught, and I could go on and on. No one once checked up on me other than perhaps my graduate advisor --and he had to, even though he was great.
I resented some of it at the time, but now I realize that, to quote a spiritual cliche, the hardships made me strong. They taught me how to learn and think, rather getting upset that someone isn't paying enough attention to me or making it easier. I had to learn to tap the resources and people that could mentor and instruct me, but to also deal with the fact that this was the academic world, not small group Bible study.
I know that Seminary is probably different, but the whining bothers me. There will always be room for institutional improvement, but education is supposed to be tough. Our job is to learn how to learn and to make the most of what is. That is one of the greatest gifts higher and especially graduate education can give us.
Change what you can at AGTS and pray hard, but also appreciate what realistically cannot or will not change and don't underestimate the power of those imperfections and challenges to shape you. If you can survive Seminary, there is hope you will survive church life as well.
Be courageous, keep perspective, grow, reach out, renounce passivity or mediocrity of any kind within yourself and realize that there comes a point where it becomes impossible to completely merge the 'just demands' of academic life with the DNA of congregational life and spiritual formation.
"Maybe it's a bad idea to allow your cynicism to creep in to every nook and cranny."
Depends. I find it illuminates, motivates, and encourages me to do good works. We all work differently Mr. Philosophy.
Postdoc,
Did you walk to school, up hill, both ways, in the snow, with no shoes too?
Come on. Nobody here is asking for anything handed on a plater. They are asking for leadership to demonstrate leadership not simply in theory but practice. If you just want to put your head down and pull the plow, do it. You can be an indian and not a chief. That's ok, no shame in finding your rightful place. But just because someone stops mindlessly following and asks why or where don't tell them they are whimps. Sounds like a lot of projection on your part my friend.
Keep your medals to yourself.
GPW - I believe you said you were going to ask other blog hosts (at least two of them) if they had received any pressure to not post, or to shut the blog down. I am curious as to whether they have responded to you. None of them have commented for a while and in light of the recent comments about AGTS possibly putting some pressure on people not to post certain things, I am just curious as to whether ANY of the blog hosts:
1) Have been asked to shut the blog down.
2) Have been pressured to not comment on certain things.
3) Feel if they do share their true feelings about the post that asked people to share about their district that they would somehow come under fire for it, or be "marked" in some way?
Please do not take this at all that I believe they have any "responsibility" to comment or post, I am simply wondering whether they have had any of the above feelings or pressures as a result of this blog.
I believe in light of the recent comments about AGTS, and the fact that the admin was involved in responding and it created some kind of a stir at the very least, it shows there is still incredible interest in this blog. It has definitely not just "died out" since GC.
Double D...
Take it easy. PostDoc was not parading medals. The comments were good and timely.
You said you were simply looking for leadership. Yet... despite the president of AGTS personally posting and asking for contacts from students who are willing... the blog list grows with complaints and talks of "hunts" at the school. I've asked for concrete examples and have yet to read a response to this request.
For all the AGTS students posting here... here's a suggestion...
Someone post a location and time there in Springfield when you can all meet. Get together and draw up a list of concerns. Contact Dr. Klauss with the contact info he posted here and see if he will meet with the entire group. Heck... ask Dr. Wood to show up as well.
Your posts here are appreciated... but they are not going to get you anywhere unless you are willing to take action.
I confess that I didn't read all of the comments, but there are a lot! I guess that my challenge is for ANY student or employee of AGTS to offer ANY evidence that voicing a dissenting opinion has EVER caused their name to be "black-balled", their grades to suffer, or had ANY negative consequences for them. There may be great fun in forming conspiracy theories about "hunts" for the students of Dr. Klaus offering his contact information just to catch the student, but is there ANY evidence to support that claim?
Brian White
AGTS Grad 06
P.S. Did anyone else notice that this post was originally about leading change in the AG (and a pretty good post at that.)
Is Brian White—AGTS 2006 “mobbed up?”
I think Brian is an undercover agent for the FBI sent down here to infiltrate the Klu Klux Klan. You know he’s working for the CIA—they wouldn’t have him in the Ma-fi-a. Just something about him...
cynic: a person who believes that people are motivated purely by self-interest rather than acting for honorable or unselfish reasons (New Oxford American Dictionary)
I honestly would like to know how being a cynic "illuminates, motivates, and encourages [you] to do good works." Additionally, do you have any reasons for your cynicism? It's funny you say "we all work differently Mr. Philosophy" when most people think philosophers are guilty of being too cynical.
conspiracy theories, very funny. You captured my thoughts nicely.
WHY?????? Why has this discussion inspired so many glowing and lengthy infomercials for AGTS? Why do you feel the need to defend the seminary? IT WASN'T ATTACKED. You are living in a mirage created by your own desperation.
We are glad you found a place that validates you but no one is throwing anything at anybody. This isn't war, there are no grenades or rocks. Get out of your trenches. You have to ask what kind of culture causes this kind of reaction?
Let's remember how this started: In response to the encouragement from the AG to begin discussing how to lead effective change in an organization, a student at AGTS with a self-admitted singular opinion asked for dialogue. They provided a menu of issues that they felt needed changing. Almost every student agreed (even in their non-denial denials)with at least some parts of those initial observations.
Now can we get a team of students, faculty, alumni, administration officials and yes even headquarters suits to look at the problems and offer solutions? Or is the seminary only teaching leadership theory to the exclusion of problem solving? This is not very complicated.
In addition Mike asked the AG if "young up and comers" are taken seriously. He also asked if the AG would consider students for their task force. Another student said they talk amongst themselves about credentialing issues regularly.
Several asked for an AGTS forum.
Still no one, NO ONE from the seminary nor the AG has endeavored to address any of the many issues their students and even some of their employees agree need to be discussed.
Leading a discussion on these issues is leading change. Dr. Klaus, AGTS faculty, your students offered you an invitation. Meet them here. You have the address. Show them what leadership looks like. Seize the moment, get out in front, address their issues one by one. What are you prepared to do?
Let me make an unfortunate prediction. At this point this scenario is likely headed only one way. The original student blogger will heed the advice of his supporters and stay under cover. This will give the administration and their loyal, politically, emotionally and financially dependent students/employees what they desperately need and seek: a reason to discredit the message by calling the messenger a coward. End of debate. No change. Opportunity wasted. Have a nice day.
Is there really any wonder why young people don't want to join the ranks of the AG?
Please prove me wrong. I'll be watching.
I suspect Zorro means skepticism when he uses cynicism:
"Whereas the cynic believes in nothing and will always ask 'why bother?' or 'who cares?' the skeptic retains his or her ideals and believes there is still good in the world while remaining realistic about the difficulties of contemporary life. We have confused skepticism and cynicism because skeptics, like cynics, are often critical of those who are naive about the bad things that happen in this world. Unlike the cynic, however, the skeptic always keeps hope alive."
—Maureen Stout
Alas, Anonymous 12/21 7:41 a.m., you sound cynical.
Here’s a random thought. What if the original AGTS student’s blog was initiated by someone in leadership who wanted to test the mettle of young leaders. I can just imagine…. “Hmmm let’s see what kind of leaders we are developing for the future of the Movement….” How are we doing? So far it looks like our best and brightest are unable to stick to the issues. It seems as though many students feel they are “future leaders,” but not leaders today. Test your wings young eagles, do you have any constructive ideas about future change. (I am not talking about complaints, whining or praise, but ideas.) Put your heads together and brainstorm about leadership in any area of the organization. The original question was not specifically about the seminary although that is one component. THINK BIG! After all, we believe in the God who says all things are possible. Remember who your God is!
Post anonymously if you like. And, don’t be afraid of leadership, they are just good people doing their best. The perceived "hunt" may have simply been an overreaction.
I have decided that ultimately, just like Hurrican Katrina, the outrage and the tyranny on this blog is all President Bush's fault...
I wanted to leave it alone, I tried to leave it alone, but I can’t leave it alone. First, Conspericy theories, thanks for the perspective; I may have come off pretty harsh, but it was late and I was frustrated.
What frustrates me is this attitude that says “I can’t voice dissention because everyone will turn against me”. Maybe I’ve just lived a charmed life, but I just don’t see it happening. I know that it happens sometimes, but does it happen as often as people seem to think? Do people in power abuse that power? Of course. But not all of the time, not even most of the time. Most of the time, people in places of influence truly and sincerely want the best for their institutions and the people in them. You may disagree with their course of action, but that is not abuse of power, that is a difference of opinion.
The thing that gets me is that this attitude that sees everyone in authority as out to get others is not only mostly wrong, but it only makes the problem worse. Those who would abuse their positions of influence thrive in the environment of fear that this attitude fosters. Those who want only what is best are hurt but the culture of secrecy and silence that it creates.
It will be interesting to see what happens next. Will fear and secrecy win out or will there be real dialogue and discussion about the future?
Brian White
Ok Brian White,
You go first. What are your best ideas about the future?
CYNIC: "cyn·ic"
NOUN:
1. A person who believes all people are motivated by selfishness.
2. A person whose outlook is scornfully and often habitually negative.
- American Dictionary.
Works for me.
After spending the last couple hours reading this entire blog (of which I am grateful. Good work, may this endeavor be fruitful and constructive!) I have this to say: What we're talking about here is ministry. What's ministry?: taking care of people by being a conduit of God and his love, character, and will. What is the Bible's advice on the execution of this directive? Prayer and working together. Where does that lead us? The common thread throughout this blog, the latest buzzword: Mentoring. Also known as relationship.
If there is anything I've learned in life it is that I must take a lot of initiative. If I want someone to mentor me I must pursue them and not expect them to come to me. If I want an education I must enroll, do the homework, show up to class, etc. If I want to be in ministry I must go find where ministry is taking place or should take place and join in or get things going. If I want to get to know those in authority over me I should show interest in them and their lives, dedicating the necessary sacrifice it will require.
None of this is to diminish previous comments requesting change within the AG world as a whole. We NEED change. (Thanks Dr. Wood for all you do, you encourage my heart) However, we must be willing to also look within and see how we personally might need to change. We may also need to examine the concept of compromise. But most of all we must be willing to take the first step. If something is not worth a little risk, is it worth our time at all?
Hopefully this is helpful to more than just those inside the Springfield network.
I know that sometimes our voices can be small and that sometimes (ok, oftentimes) people can be pretty darn stubborn and resistant to change, BUT that should not diminish our willingness to stand up and remain strong, providing our position is worth defending.
AGTS student, keep talking (or typing), but don't let talking be the only thing you do.
And that goes for the rest of us as well. Let us not just be satisfied to be disgruntled, may we roll up our sleeves and do something about it.
Just a question, but, those of us who wish to be mentored... are we actively mentoring someone as well? Maybe some of the growth we seek will come from jumping into the deep end. They say we learn best by teaching...
I thought I would use my full name... why? If GS Wood can do it, so can I. Ulterior motives?... ha ha, I don't need any.
I suck up to no one.
Good word, 2nd LT Aimee Crane: (If that is who you say you are and it sounds like it is)
You might be just the type of person AGTS student #1 was trying to get involved. Thanks for your passion and focus.
Take the bull by the horns!
Hooah!
Well said, LT Crane.
[And I'm sure you are who you say you are...]
I signed in as the first "Hey you!" and I was going to respond to 2lt. Aimee Craine, but another "Hey you!" used my nickname. This is getting complicated. Oh well, such is the nature of the blog.
Aimee. I appreciated your comments on mentoring and agree with what you have said. Mentoring/discipleship has to be initiated and received. It's a two way relationship. Do you feel that the initiation should always be on the part of the mentee? I have known many who desire to be mentored, but find it difficult to find a mentor. There is a lot of risk involved and fear of rejection etc. For some personalities those obstacles are very real.
How should and could leadership (of whatever context you are in)try and assist the process? I have seen a few ineffective attempts at matching up mentors and mentees. What have you done/experienced at an institutional level that worked well. I would love to glean from your experience.
Also I am curious about your statement "We NEED change." I agree that we need to look inside and see what The Holy Spirit is asking us to change as individuals. Where do you think we need to change as a community and/or organization? Where do you think we should focus our attention?
'Hey Sue!',
I'm working on answering your questions... it's going to take me some thinking time. But I just wanted you to know that I read your post and am working on it.
Thanks for all your comments. (And that goes for everyone!)
Thanks Amy... go Army!
Once again it looks like the women have shown us how to communicate with love and respect while focusing on the issues.
Thank you daughters of Eve for your lioness hearts and gentle spirits.
Dr. Klaus,
Why won't you engage the students in this forum? Is this not the right place? The right way? Are the issues too sensative or complicated to have in public? I honestly don't know the answers to these questions. But keeping silent(the AG is silent on the AGTS issues as well) sends a message that something is wrong or inappropriate.
Help us understand where you are coming from.
AGTS Student Cinco:
There are any number of reasons why Byron Klaus might not want to engage AGTS Student Uno on this blog. For one thing, personal communication is usually better at solving conflicts than is impersonal, written communication. For another, perhaps some of the issues that need to be discussed are confidential in nature--or even fraught with legal jeopardy. Perhaps Dr. Klaus has better things to do than respond to anonymous critics on this blog.
Just because we have the time and desire to blog, we shouldn't presume that our leaders do as well...nor that they are under any obligation to do so. Although it should go without saying that we are glad they're reading and (as occasion arises) responding.
George
You can tell a professor has nothing to do when he sits reading this blog through twice on the weekend before Christmas to try to understand these students’ themes of dissatisfaction. But your grades had to be in to Sarah Clark on Thursday, and now I’ve clearly got nothing left to do…
I want to suggest that the discussion has now been so protracted, that a summary would be helpful. Here are the issues that appear to need attention:
1. There is a debate around the preferred or prescribed roles of the President and the Dean viz a viz their personal contact with students.
2. There is dissatisfaction that AGTS professors are
a. Not teaching our subjects with flair and sufficiently engaging students in the subject matter during class periods
b. Not open to student dialogue and differences of opinion in class
c. Not in personal contact with students in order to be able to discern their emotional, physical or spiritual burdens
d. Not rising to the task of pastoring/mentoring/discipling our students
e. Not sufficiently sensitive to the need for a short turn-around time on papers, reports and tests/quizzes
f. Too complacent in our tenured positions to attend to the task of sharpening our applied leadership skills
3. There is a debate around the potential benefit of a local assembly cited at the Seminary that would be analogous to the functions of a “teaching hospital” at a medical school
4. There is a debate around the nature and purpose of the current chapel services and the potential role that students could play there
5. There is no viable and effective manner in which students can air their grievances or provide feedback about curricula, courses or procedures. The present course evaluation forms appear to be impotent and ineffective.
6. There appear to be differences of opinion about the role of the Seminary in placing students in local churches for ministry purposes. Students appear to be ready to minister but there are insufficient opportunities for ministry.
7. The voices of the alumni are not being sought or heard on issues of curriculum validity and “consumer satisfaction”.
8. The role of SAC and the purposes for which they have chosen to allocate their funds needs clarification and discussion
9. The relative cost of studies at AGTS in comparison to other denominational seminaries in the US
Personally I want to say that I was sorry that the comments at times degenerated to the use of words and employing nuances that are not in keeping with our standard of agape. That is the danger of anonymity. It provides one with a greater temptation to say things that are unkind and unseemly. Nevertheless, the gist of the blog was challenging and thought-provoking and both anonymous and known commentators have provided much food for after-thought.
It should be clear that these issues are much too complicated for a quick response from Dr. Klaus simply to appease disaffected students. I agree with Dr. Wood, I think his offer to communicate openly on these issues was gracious and should be taken advantage of. For my part I will undertake to circulate these points (and any others that may be added to the blog in the coming days) to all my colleagues for their attention and consideration in the new semester.
Hey everybody! I just found ZuZu's pedals in my coat jacket. I wanna live!!!!
Merry Xmas every body! Merry Xmas!
This blog has spiralled out of control. It has completely lost its original intention and is now a frenzy of arguments among anonymous bloggers and a parsing party partly partial to participles. (Sorry about that last part - it was just fun) Really, it seems to be more about defining what makes AGTS imperfect and less about how the AG Fellowship can embrace the change so desperately needed! So, I say we either get back to the original blog or we relegate to quoting old movie lines and wishing each other happy Xmas. (That's right, I said "X"mas, not "Christ"mas. Gotta gripe about it? That's one more thing you can complain about the seminary. We do it all the time! Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!! Learn some Greek. Thanks Dr. H.)
With that said, much love to all of you. AGTS Student 1, keep it up man (or woman, or group of persons). But please, take Dr. Klaus up on his open door offer. If you'd like, I'll go with you. I wouldn't mind hearing the dialogue.
AGTS professor, thanks for engaging and taking this whole thing seriously. Now, who are you? No, you don't have to answer that. But seriously...
Brian, Dan, Beaty, Lt. Aimee, Shannon, and all anonymous students, thanks for engaging as well. Let's spend some time in prayer over our month off and ask God how he wants us to help resolve some of the issues raised!
"And I'm proud to be a seminarian, where at least I know I'm free. And I won't forget the men who..." ok, didn't want to get too sappy.
Merry Xmas everybody! Merry Xmas!
Burnette
Mike,
VERY NICE!!!!
To the complaining AGTS students:
"That which does not destroy us makes us stronger."
‡ Friedrich Nietzsche
Personally, I found my year at an A/G university to be on par with high school academically. I don't know if that should be extrapolated to the seminary experience, but probably...
paul,
Unfortunately, the first year or two at many major universities is no different. Of course that doesn't mean it's a good thing or that it should be accepted. From my experience, there are a lot of really lazy students more concerned with having fun that with learning (please note, I did not say 'all' students, just a lot). Professors are then faced with the choice of failing (or giving really low grades) to a large percentage of his students or lowering his expectations (i.e. allowing grade inflation). Because teaching evaluations are so widespread, many (of the non-tenured variety) end up choosing the latter option. Of course, that only serves to further enable the students to screw around and not take their school work seriously - and then the process continues. (agts student 1, I knew I could turn this back into a discussion about teaching evals and 'consumer' students--j/k!).
I'll grant that at some schools the process is due to incompetent professors, but I just wanted to point out that it's not always their fault. So to draw a conclusions about the AGTS faculty from your experience of particular faculty at another AG school may be a bit hasty.
(And for all you conspiracy theory types, I have no association with AGTS (or any other AG school) and can in no way benefit from these comments.)
Paul F.,
The comparison of AGTS, of which I have no first-hand knowledge, was probably unfair. Further, my comment was not directed, generally, at my professors, who I mostly liked, at the unnamed A/G sponsored undergraduate institution, however, I did find the coursework to be fairly easy compared to my coursework the previous two years at a secular university.
Yes, I agree, many, if not most, students are disinterested in acutal learning.
Paul H
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought, which they avoid."
‡ Soren Kierkegaard
(I like quotes.)
You want to lead some change AG? Start here. This is a letter recently sent right here in S. Missouri. If you don't believe me check it out for yourselves.
What exactly are they fearful of? The gene pool of ideas just got alot thinner.
How can this happen and will anyone help us?
The following is a copy of the letter's contents;
Dated November 29, 2007
Dear Fellow Ministers:
We Trust the blessings of God are greatly upon each of you during this special Holiday
Season.
In our October presbyters meeting a motion prevailed that no Assemblies of God
credentialed minister in our district will be allowed to attend a non-Assemblies of God
Church unless they are given permission by the Presbytery Board.
It was also moved that the District write a letter to those ministers that have been
brought to our attention who are attending a non-Assemblies of God Church indicating it
will be necessary for them to receive District Presbytery approval for them to do so, or
their credentials will be in jeopardy.
If you or some credentialed minister in your church falls into this category, please
comply or encourage them to follow through with this action.
May God continue to bless you and your family as together we strive to enhance the
Kingdom of God.
Sincerely in Christ
Bill Baker
Superintendent
Southern Missouri District Council
Anonymous:
This letter from Southern Missouri has already been hashed out thoroughly in the comments sections of other posts.
GPW
New Topic: Single vs. Married?????
Would you hire a "single" male or female pastor?
How much of North American culture has affected our North American AG church culture as it relates to the common church stance of rejecting single ministers? Do statistics corroborate "moral failures" amongst single ministers rather than married ministers? If not, why are churches so hesitant to hire single people?
I wonder if Paul was alive today, would our churches accept his teaching? It seems we have disregarded his "concession" for marriage (1 Cor. 7). Did Paul really think singleness should be the norm? I am not advocating celibacy amongst our "priests." I am only trying to understand our aversion to those who, for one reason or another...have not married. Isn't singleness, in the very least, justified by Scripture. "Sola Scriptura?"
Singleness offers the possibility living life with the degree of intensity that Paul, himself, lived with. He certainly would not have earned any "balanced life" award. The guy was insane. There was nothing temperate in his body. He took unbelievable risks and disregarded his own safety to pursue a life of physical persecution and suffering.
Your thoughts? I am especially curious as to whether or not other single people feel the same oppression....i dare say shame in being single.
I am a 27 year old, SINGLE, AG licensed, soon to be AGTS M.Div. grad called to vocational ministry...who has simply not found the right girl....yet.
Am i disqualified because of my marital status?
Let's be honest, marriage is not something you can FORCE. I tend to think it is the most important decision one can make, besides the one to surrender to Christ.
Single Male:
In no way are you disqualified. You may feel disqualified. People may act like you are disqualified. But our qualifications for ministry do not come from plaudits, positions or people. Your position in ministry is given to you and to me by our King.
Just be who you are. Don't worry about the denomination, church politics, or even fellow ministers. If God is for you who can be against you.
All that being said: Paul was not insane. I understand your use of hyperbole. But please. Paul did what he believed God was asking him to do in obedience. That is not insanity. That is faith. And despite all the odds that stacked against Paul, God gave him the desire of his heart. He will do the same for you. That is the miracle in my mind of ministry. Somewhere along the line, as we conform to his image, our desires become his desires for us and we are better able to choose freely what he would choose for us.
So as one voice, I say you are who you are and you should be evaluated for a ministry position on a team not by what you are not but by how you would fit and what unique gifts you bring. And I'm sure you have many. Don't worry, God is in control and if the AG has a bias or discriminatory attitude against you that should tell you all you need to know. There are plenty of other Spirit filled ministries available.
I can definitely relate to anonymous single guy. I have been told to my face before by pastors that they would not hire me because I am single. How funny is it that the two biggest strikes against me in our fellowship is 1) I am single (which Paul said is preferable); and 2) I am educated (too many pastors getting by on a berean education and intimidated by an educated junior minister) but that is another story for another day.
Now I know that many church people are leary about hiring a single youth pastor because they are afraid that his youthful lusts will lead him or her to indescretions, both with pornography or with a member of their youth group. The same goes for single men children's pastors. I am not saying that all churches feel this way, but too many do. I would be interested in seeing research that would show the percentage of single ministers that cheat, have indescretions, etc. compared to the number which are married. It has been my experience that the married ones act innapropriately more often.
But whatever. Some people are just going to never be open to change, or anything else different from them. Its no different from people who think that Martin Luther King Jr. day is not a real holiday...another topic for another day.
So here's what I think we should do...Institute an EHarmony.com program out of headquarters. Make it a ministry of US Missions, and allow people to work it on their own until they are 30. Then if they have not found anyone by 30, have the EP start doing arranged marriages for them. Then not only will we be qualified for ministry, we will have the ministry mate the fellowship endorses. It is a win, win!
BTW, I am all that stuff that anonymous said, except I have found the right girl, SHE just doesnt know it yet!
Our highest calling is not in ministry itself, or even in being a husband or father, but to be more like Christ and be conformed to His image. Because we who are His children are purposed to be more like Him, and it is his love that compels us to be a part of advancing His kingdom, we should all be able to do the ministries we are called into regardless if we are married or single.
I will also be graduating with a Masters degree in May and I am also single. I too should not be turned away from doing the Lord's work in any capacity. Who reserves the right to neglect anyone from being a part advancing God's kingdom, if an individual is called to a certain vocation? No man.
I am still praying for my princess and I hope she will come. But until she does or even if she does not, I will continue to be a bondservant of the Lord and serve Him wherever I feel called to go. No one should be able to take that away.
AGWM protocol requires I have personal endorsement from my California district for missionary candidacy, but being in Missouri presents an obvious complication. So my district superintendent setup a proxy meeting here in Springfield with a panel of three trusted interviewers. The meeting happened yesterday, and it's been a winded process thus far trying to become a missionary candidate to Eurasia.
AGWM has already determined my immediate status—denied.
This isn't a reflection about AGWM bureaucracy and policies. Believe me, I have plenty of thoughts and questions surrounding that topic, but I have been rejected due to an obvious reason, I have too much student debt. By the time I graduate May 2008 I will have a daunting [or damning] $80,000 debt accrued because I invested seven years to AG private education. Most professions work to recompense your school debt, i.e. employers of your field of study will hire you despite your debt. My case is the anomaly.
I knew the meeting would be superfluous since they didn’t possess the executive power to reverse my fate. The majority of the time spent was with me divulging my “calling”. Whether my presentation was convincing or not I’m not sure, I’m not the most perceptive on reading people. I’m not even sure if they were trying to determine anything, whether my aspirations are legitimately holy ordained or not. Boy, that’s quite a responsibility on their part. Nevertheless, being AG-bots, I don’t mean to say that condescendingly, but, it was already predetermined by them as well that my student debt disqualified me from immediate consideration. Immediately when I finished sharing my impassioned vision to do missionary work in Eurasia, my debt came into question as a major deterrent to that goal. Fair enough.
But the conversation really turned interesting when my marital status also came into question. I am single: never had a woman, yet never left wanting; Jesus my divine lover. That whole bit. For whatever reason, one of them felt compelled to inform me that the higher ups who will evaluate my application will be apprehensive to send me fondly to the foreign mission field as a single person. So he began to advice (this is verbatim), “I hope marriage is in your short-term or long-term plan“…I abruptly interrupted him to say, “My marital status is inconsequential to my calling.”
I am in no way opposed to getting married, and that’s not because I believe I lack the gift of celibacy, which I believe is an ungrounded biblical concept and should not be taught.
When my school debt was brought up I gave a ten minute spiel on how I will strategically work to cut that deficit, work in fruitful ministry towards ordination, learn proficient Russian, and reapply as a fully appointed missionary before I am deployed to go out on the field. The determination is there. But how exactly do I throw in marriage into the strategy plan? Bridal order, e-harmony…perhaps? He made it sound so simple. I have more confidence that I can raise an $80,000 bail in a couple years—and walk on water—than I do about getting married on command. “Woman! Stand by my side.” There are simply variables beyond my control when it comes to securing a wife, such as, for instance, that desirous chemistry—hot and godly; even if she is within reach, then there’s still that elusive element, mutual attraction.
To my “inconsequential” comment there was a rebuttal given. It was said that marriage is consequential to ministry because it’s more efficient, i.e. contexts such as Muslim regions, where polygamy is the cultural practice, consider single men incredulous. Maybe, so what. I half expected him to drop the trump card, "You can also have sex," said with with a wink and a grin.
Jesus and the Apostle Paul must not have gotten the memo.
Policies grow out of problems and such sentiments could simply be reactions to past indiscretions. Maybe past single missionaries copulated entire villages. Maybe they believe marriage is a safeguard to keep me from sleeping around with the natives. Not necessarily a romantic approach to marriage, “Honey, I needed to marry you to avoid having undomesticated, promiscuous sex...” Because of course, married men never fall prey to adultery. The statistics on that is immaculate. Maybe adultery is more agreeable than fornication. Maybe my history as a disciplined, chaste twenty-six year old with virgin lips means diddly squat. Maybe marriage is safer and more efficient. But when did the gospel demand to be buffered? And should I cower against odds?! I’m not in this for my comfort!
You better believe doing ministry as a single person is dangerous. Why? Because we can live dangerously. Because preaching the Gospel is dangerous and absolutely scandalous. Isn’t that what drove Paul’s concession, marriage is anchored in anxieties whereas being single absolves one from marital obligation and thereby more impervious to the curtailments of self-preservation? 1 Corinthians 7:32-34 “I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord. But the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried or betrothed woman is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit. But the married woman is anxious about worldly things, how to please her husband.” Of course, danger welcomes all people, both the single and married, but the repercussions for the married are of a different breed. Danger is a shared affair for the married. Any husband or father that does ministry without consideration and concern for the wellbeing of the family is a prick.
Paul’s concession was simply a practical one, being single is advantageous. He himself was living proof. Check out the reward and evidence in 2 Corinthians 11:23-27, “FAR more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea; on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers; in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure.” Would this legacy of suffering have been possible as a married person? Not the most attractive persuasion, Paul.
I have read enough literature to know that those enshrined in the hall of martyrdom come from all walks of life. So don’t worry, your gospel is not exactly safe from beating simply because you hide behind a wife. And for the woman willing to marry a man so bold, don't worry, suffering is an equal opportunist. I have also observed enough ministers in my lifetime to know that effective ministry is no respecter of person and that the Holy Spirit does not reserve partisan favor to any particular marital status. Weigh the scale for yourself and history will balance Paul’s bias with people on both sides of the scale of married and single having done extraordinary things for the kingdom of God.
So I figure I won’t be exorcising demons in the name of marriage, or, with a loud voice, getting the lame to walk in the power of celibacy. Aawkward. I am simply flustered that after being denied candidacy approval because of my student debt that they would heap upon me another great burden and consider denying me again for being single as if I can get married at will. Is it not, as Romans 1:16 proclaims, the Gospel that holds the power of salvation for everyone who believes?
btw...i am anonymous #2.
AWGM protocol man:
I understand your frustration. It is justified. You have very eloquently proven your point. I am sorry you had to prove your point. Not only is what you describe unbiblical it is unethical, immoral and in any industry outside the church would be considered illegal and unconstitutional. It is difficult to be subject to leaders and/or those in authority who do not see or understand neither the depth of your call nor the breadth of God's Kingdom.
As an encouragement let me suggest this:
David was subjected to Saul's insanity and violent abuse of power. Why? Many theologians and scholars debate the reasons behind Saul's active paranoia. Personally, I believe what Gene Edwards writes in "A Tale of Three Kings." He believes God used Saul to extricate the "Saul like" qualities out of David before he became king.
Perhaps God is extricating something out of you: proofing something with the hottest fire possible. Do not misunderstand me. I do not implicate you in any way with the prejudice and ignorance of your AGWM board members or justify their actions. The bias you describe is deplorable. But I do believe, as a result of your experience, you are now much less likely to ever follow their example. Unfortunately for your generation, you must focus more on the negative lessons being demonstrated by those in positions of leadership around you. By that I mean, instead of learning how to be or what to do, you are learning what not to be and what never to do. These lessons are harder to experience but they last a lifetime.
David learned his lessons in a dark cave not of his choosing. Welcome to God's leadership school. He is with you. He will do mighty things through you. Difficult challenges produce the strongest victors. I am sorry you are forced to face opposition from those posing as "supporters" within your own camp. But, you are learning discernment in the process as well.
I pray you do not become embittered despite the abuses you have experienced.
To the AG: Wake up. Listen to these young men telling you of ridiculous and ungodly obstacles brought about by those in authority who use their power not in faith but with fear. These demonstrations of discrimination are dishonorable to the entire movement. These young men, the future of our movement are leaving. And they should.
Godspeed.
One wonders what would be accomplished for the Kingdom if people simply did what they believe God has called them to do: debt loads, single, married,fat, skinny--all considered. If you believe you are called to be a stateside pastor--then go! If no church will have you then plant a church with non-churched people. If you've been called to a former Soviet republic--get yourself a ticket and head out. Stop spinning your wheels worrying about pleasing the AG. I'd love to see a generation of young pastor/missionaries head out with God's supply...period. Our success in missions came when missionaries had shoestring budgets and actually lived at the level of those they were trying to reach. All my years of worrying about the AG have been misspent. Even when I've had their approval, I've got little more in the way of support or resources.
I think all the topics i have read on this blog are deserving of space on here. Bringing to light the issues that face our movement....isn't that what this blog is suppose to be about?
AGTS is shaping the movement's future leaders (not exclusively). It deserves the utmost attention with a significant investment of our collective input through financial, intellectual, and energy resources.
As for being single, i appreciate what "just get going" had to say. Let's remember again the purpose of the blog. I have no doubt these men will do just that... However, let's recognize the purpose of this blog. It is not simply to whine. The purpose of this blog is to explore the issues that face our movement.
Will we recognize and correct or will we turn our heads and start our own churches, organizations, and denominations?
Recognizing our own biases and narrow-mindedness will have a direct impact on the extent we will be able to partner with God in His mission.
I’ve been following the blog for a while, and would like to chime in on both of the last two “threads” that have been discussed, i.e., the matters raised regarding the AGTS’s viability and the matter of a single person being rebuffed from AGWM appointment for being single and indebted. From my humble vantage point, I see common ground in the complaints I have read, and would like to address them.
Regarding the seminary, while the concerns of the original “agts student” strike a cord in me (as one concerned about the discipleship of young ministers), I feel that a great deal of the criticism is either misdirected or misguided. Students want a seminary to be accredited (attesting to academic excellence), to be places wherein guaranteed loans can be obtained, and wherein some sort of subsidy keeps them from footing the full price of their education. In fact, they are so desirous of these things they assume them as a birthright (as has been pointed out, they will go elsewhere if they are not provided here). Yet the obtaining and sustaining of these things is no small task, and the president and dean of any given seminary—AGTS included—are by definition bound to serve the students in these matters. Paradoxically, “agts student” tacitly demands these things while /also/ demanding that AGTS be a church; he/she wants Dr. Klaus to be a president, but also to be their personal pastor. While “agts student” may deny this, the spiritual role he/she has prescribed for these men is precisely that. I would submit that this is a demand that no mortal can meet, though if any mortal could come close, it would be a servant leader like Byron Klaus.
I have both attended and taught at a seminary level, as well as dialoguing with other ministers from other seminary communities. I can say with confidence that the nirvana “agts student” yearns for (clearly with deep spiritual hunger, for which I feel empathy), does not exist. The idea that the president of the seminary I attended sitting down for a cup of java with each student would be laughable—the campus pastor, perhaps; the president, no. Mentoring (which, incidentally, is by its very nature organic and relational—not “systematic”) is a function of the /church/, and while individual men and women within a seminary’s leadership and faculty may take on this role as members of Christ’s body, a seminary (being an academic construct) does not and can not lend itself to this critical activity. This is one of the reasons AGTS—as well as other seminaries—requires a statement of faith, calling, testimony, and spiritual maturity to accompany any application. One isn’t required to be spiritually mature beyond any need for mentoring, but the idea is that one is grounded enough to know where to go and how to continue the journey. While much has been said about the disconnect between seminary and churches, that will be found in every seminary setting, is systemic, and can hardly be blamed on one person or even a group of people within either community. The upshot is that each student must wrestle with the Lord, pursue relationships, deal with those that don’t work, and grow from those who do. AGTS and the AG community in Springfield is no different (and is, in fact, superior in many respects) to similar situations in other communities and with other seminaries.
As for the young man who was denied by AGWM, I also have encouragement to offer, though it will not take the form of attack upon those who came down with that decision. I can say (also by personal experience) that AGWM is the most remarkable mission sending agency going. I have seen missionaries of other sending agencies on the field, and AG missionaries and their children are the best trained, best provided for, best supported corps out there. This is far shy of perfection, a truth to which I can also testify, but in an imperfect world, it works pretty well. Obviously, “anonymous” sees something of value in it, else he wouldn’t be applying. But some things need to be recognized, and chiding the leaders of this great movement within a movement to “wake up” doesn’t move us twit closer to the light. Having been through the process, I have serious doubts as to whether anyone directly challenged the legitimacy of your calling. The issue has to do with hard-learned experience about financial and cultural realities on the field. I don’t have easy answers for $80,000 in student debt—you are one of many and it, too, is a systemic problem. But one thing I do know: Considering the enormous costs of sending a missionary, the churches of your district (whatever it is) cannot afford those payments, and if they are not taken care of beforehand, they will crush you on the field. It is mercy that denies you departure until they are taken care of. As for your singleness, I empathize with your quandary. But making cracks about Jesus and Paul getting or not getting “memos” will not solve the difficulties you would deal with in the minds of your hearers, whether you will or no, and ripping off remarks as you have made them will get you none closer to resolution with them. Knowing the men who spoke with you, I feel pretty confident that (unlike your characterization) they were not suggesting you go to the nearest 7/11 and pick up a wife for yourself. They were making a statement from a vantage point of experience and of painful diplomacy with the larger movement—U.S. churches and districts, missionary field fellowships, and national churches alike. Single people (such as yourself) have a tendency to want to get married. They are fundamentally unsettled in that aspect of their lives until they do (Paul and Jesus, unlike yourself, were settled upon their singleness and had no desire or anticipation of change). Who will you marry after your appointment? A national? There are a host of issues that are larger than your life and calling involved in that course of action, including cultural barriers heretofore unseen, naturalization issues, and financial matters (which your supporting churches will be obligated to pick up). Will you marry a fellow American, perhaps during a furlough? If so, will they decide (as some have after saying vows) that the missionary life is not for them? So much for the investment in training in you. Or if they want to go with you, then approval and training will have to be repeated for their sake. I am merely scratching the surface. For all the victory stories, there are many more tragedies. I know a few myself. Again, these men must make decisions based upon much more than whether they respect you and are convinced of your call.
The common ground in these issues is that we are part of a community of faith. Our actions and associations are part of something bigger. That “something bigger” affords us strength (such as a certain education, or immediate access to all the churches in a district for fundraising purposes), but also requires things of us in the process. What it requires depends from person to person, but I would humbly suggest that chafing against the leadership of people who must deal with many more factors than perhaps we have considered will get us nowhere. Denominational considerations and complexities are easily branded as “immoral” in the postmodern age. But before we allow anger too deep a foothold, perhaps it would be wise to consider that the Kingdom of God is not a democracy. As we submit to the imperfect for the sake of the Perfect One, He will redeem our humble sacrifice and bring about the dreams we have received from Him (the only ones that count for anything) in His way and time.
Both/And?
I don't think so.
How did the blue cool-aid taste?
“Denominational considerations and complexities…” Did you work for the Nixon administration?
You are excellent at communicating the party line. It is just this type of sermonizing that makes many of us "post-moderners" shake our heads, shrug our shoulders, smile and nod. You really have it all figured out.
Enjoy the music as the ship goes down.
This is a blog about leading change. You seem to be advocating entrenchment into the status quo. Do you not know why young ministers are walking away from the movement? It is just these types of diatribes that come out of the traditional dogmatic doctrines of a bygone era which thwart any attempt for new wine to flow.
You justify academic myopia? Where is the both/and? Is it not possible to expect modeling of biblical mentoring and discipleship throughout our educational institutions? How does one learn to be a minister of the gospel? By watching, learning, doing, failing, coaching, evaluation and encouragement. That’s a hands on process demonstrated to us by our great Teacher. If our seminaries and universities have to abdicate their divine call to equip the saints for the work of equipping the saints just to appease accreditation institutions than we will have won the battle and lost the war.
You defend the policy of discrimination against unmarried ministers with citations of all that could go wrong. Please remember the painful lessons of our past. Sin is no respecter of persons or marital status. Time and experience has proven every minister is equally susceptible to falling into immoral behavior. None more likely than any other. I agree with Encourager, to act otherwise is to discriminate which is immoral, unethical and unbiblical.
Let's just be honest for a minute.
Many within the established hierarchy of the AG look at the coming generation of leaders and are scared stiff. We don't hold to all your sacred systems. Our vision for the kingdom looks very different and that unsettles you. We look different, talk differently, many of us come from the other side of life where sins and its devastating repercussions were as close as our own living rooms and bedrooms. We are not a generation or four removed from the hard realities of the streets. We have a different focus because we clearly recognize the hell that too often reigns in our neighborhoods and in our families. We appear to you to be taking the movement by storm, maybe even violently and that unsettles you.
I'm sorry.
But know this: You can’t stop this. It is bigger than you and it is bigger than us. You had your chance. It's time to hand over the reins. During your tenure the world has passed you by with all the subtly of a noon day freight train and you didn't even flinch. You missed AIDs: perhaps the greatest global crisis since the great flood. You watched abject poverty encapsulate 65% of the globe. You presided over a 55% divorce rate inside the church. You took a health and wealth bastardized gospel to the airwaves only to sully the name of Jesus with sex (strait or gay), hookers (strait or gay), drugs, real estate scandals, private jets and marble toilets. It makes Martha Stewart look like Mother Teresa in comparison. You allowed the holy title of “Christian” to become synonymous with a right wing, fundamentalist, republican political action committee. Many Americans now report they are more afraid of right wing fundamentalist Christianity than al Qaeda. I agree with you that the Kingdom of God is not a democracy. But it doesn’t look like he has been running it at least in America for a very long time either.
Do the honorable thing. Just leave the keys and walk away. We don’t need any more of that kind of “help”.
Unless, you want to repent.
“If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.” Amen
Dear "anonymous":
I am not sure what sort of "diatribe" you are referring to. While I did defend some of the decision making aspects that are involved in the matters that have been discussed, I also spoke empathetically of the concerns addressed. On the other hand, between you (whichever "anonymous" you are) and "encourager," I hear almost nothing but bitter accusations of everything from immorality to cult-like behavior on the part of AG leaders. Then you demand the power and crown it with a passage of Scripture and the obligatory amen. My goodness. Be careful, young lion, lest you become that which you claim to despise the most.
The fact is, you don't know me at all, and you are operating by a caricature in your mind, presumably based entirely upon the fact that I would defend some people I know and what they go through on a daily basis. In fact, my words are a plea that the younger people involved in these issues guard themselves against a crippling bitterness by considering perspectives other than their own. I thought that was the "postmodern" thing to do.
It's so funny. I never aspired to getting the "reins" or the "keys" to anything, and I find the very thought of it rather frightening. Yet even that isn't so frightening as the paradigm I have perceived in some of these posts. Some voice legitimate concerns. Yet others are so vitriolic and judgmental (the previous post grossly misinterprets everything from my position on singles in ministry to my username) that I am seriously tempted to conclude that they are some sort of spam. I will leave it to the readers--of all generations--to discern the Spirit of the Lord and His fruit in the words that are written.
Both And'er:
Yes, I agree, you rightly perceive frustration on the part of many of the posters. I perceive it as well. I don't know what you mean by SPAM, but I do not recognize gross mischaracterizations on the part of the last anonymous poster.(Young Lion) Misinterpretations perhaps but not mischaracterizations. (It reminds me of a conversation between a father and a son. Tough but necessary.)Certainly there is inflammatory language. But I think that is intentional as to make their point as weighty as possible. Sounds like he might be a good preacher some day!
This blog and many of the posts seem to resemble the effects of a long neglected injury. Infection has set in. When the injury is probed, puss is revealed. Anonymous has witnessed the worst of the evangelical movement and is calling for change. I recognize the rationale within your explanation. But I think you missed the pain in their reply.
It appears to me, and this is only a guess, that the writer has perhaps been personally injured by the abuses of power we have all witnessed within recent years throughout American Christianity. I know for me as well, my witness with non-believing friends and family becomes tainted in their eyes and more difficult when national leaders fall. During the holidays I found myself being asked to give insights and explanations for George Bush and Iraq instead of the miracle Jesus birth and his new kingdom. So I recognize the frustration of being caught in the paint of a broad brush not of your choosing.
I also hear a sense of abandonment. I want to tell anonymous 8:43 I was saved from the sins of the street just as you were. It wasn't so long ago that I don't still remember that pain and anger. (Though I confess I try very hard to forget all of it readily.)
But remember this young lion, we are often saved more from ourselves than anything else. Watch your passion meter. As I read your post I hear more about what you are against than what you are for. That's OK. But sooner or later you have to be for something more than against something else to move forward. (We learned that mistake from Mr. Falwell. Let's not forget that.)
Yes, I will repent, today, tomorrow and the day after that for what my generation has left you and yours. Al of what you say is accurate about poverty, AIDs, televangelists and the political, legislative approach to kingdom building. We got lost. We should have done more. We could have done more. We should still do more. But as you justly complain about a lack of mentoring, realize we had even less. Many of our fathers either came back from WW II or Korea as only shells of men. The Armed services had produced wonderful warriors but in the recipe many also became silent, authoritarian parents. So many of us are still recovering too. That you inherited our wounds is very regrettable. But we were not malicious, just ignorant and blinded by our own pain. That is not an excuse. But I hope it clarifies. I'm honored that your generation is asking mine to be mentored and discipled. What greater display of respect can we ask for? We certainly don't deserve it. But we should absolutely pass on everything we have gathered as an inheritance to further your journey. We can walk wounded and limp forward together. We are a body.
Just a side note: Many of us remember the streets you are still so close to. That is why we took the stands we did on alcohol and dancing. Did we go over board? Yes, I think so. Did it serve a purpose? Yes, for the time, I think so. Is it time to change that position? Yes. But our difficulty is that we still remember the pain of our sins and the forms it assumed.
Dream your dreams young lion. We toothless tigers will have our visions and try to guide you the best we can. We are all God's children. I am not afraid of you. Don't be angry at me. But please realize, only God gives the keys and the reins. No one and nothing else has that power. I leave you with a verse as powerful as the one you left.
"I will build my Church. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
That's a promise Young Lion. From King Jesus himself. You won't build the Church. We won't build the Church. Jesus will build the Church. He hold the keys.
Amen.
Amen.
both/and-er,
I too found the response to your original comment to be quite uncharitable. I think we would all do well to abide by what a professor of mine calls "The Principle of Charity." The basic idea of this principle is this:
"If you read/hear something and immediately think it is obviously wrong (for whatever reason) then either 1) you misunderstood the point or 2) it wasn't worth reading/listening to in the first place."
If we think about it, this principle is one of the foundations for any dialogue that aims at acquiring truth. So, instead of automatically assuming the worst about someone's comments (as Anonymous 8:43 seems to have done) why not try to understand it in the most charitable way possible (as toothless tiger to young lion seems to have done concerning both/and-er and the anonymous response).
If we are only trying to pick fights (and win them) then we'll never make progress in any respect. But, if we truly want to see positive change and acquire the truth about how to accomplish that change, then we have to be more humble and willing to give one another the benefit of doubt.
Anonymous 8:43:
AGWM just appointed a single, male minister from my church to the field in Latin America. And I know of several single women who have received appointments to the field, in fact who have already served at least one term. Perhaps, then, AGWM doesn't have a problem with single missionaries per se; it just has a problem with you.
One thing I have learned in the AG (and every organization I have worked for) is that tone and demeanor are predictors of success. Neither the tone nor the demeanor of your response to Both/And will get you anywhere in any organization.
George
GPW, your observations about single AGWM appointments were precisely the elephant in the living room I was going to bring up. AGWM is, in fact, one of the most progressive arms of the AG community in this respect. Off hand I can think of quite a few singles with MA, MIT, and even appointed general positions in AGWM. Given the data provided (albeit via a very tendentious presentation), the issue was the huge debt burden--which will, by policy, sink any comer, no matter what their marital status. The fact that anyone bothered to counsel the young man in regard to marriage (seeing that he clearly desires it) is a harbinger of eventual approval (pending debt elimination)--NOT "discrimination."
Paul F. brings up the issue of "truth." One of my father's maxims was that "People tend to prefer simple half-truths to complex whole truths." The half-truths in these matters are that 1) There is some bias against single ministers in certain AG circles (and all evangelical circles, for that matter), and (previously) 2), seminaries are meant to be places of growth, though paradoxically, students often find them a desert (ergo, seminary admins/faculties are falling short in some respect).
The complex whole truths, meanwhile, fold in other matters in order to get a bigger picture. I, and others, have attempted to raise some of these, though in one case the scenario involves a decision the full data pertaining to which we cannot know. The key is to realize that the issues we are discussing play out in a three-dimensional world, not a two-dimensional caricature mocked up in binary cyberspace.
Yes, this blog is about change. I can rattle off quite few things I'd like to see change in every aspect of the AG world I have experienced. But some recent posts seem to put change for its own sake above nearly every other consideration--including a careful determination of the truth, and certainly including love. Who hasn't been wounded? And since when is that a license for evil? Before we can heal our land, we'd better spend the time in prayer so we can be healed ourselves. Gene Edwards' book was less about determining whether we find ourselves under a Saul or a David than it was about making sure we are a David and not an Absalom.
My greatest struggle as I have served within a denominational structure that at times has not understood or supported my efforts, has been to guard my own heart from bitterness and sinfulness (and I’ve not always successfully won the battle against temptation). Dan Allender addresses this as he speaks of our need to understand our own stories:
. . . a leader must first walk into his own narrative. If he plunges into his own story, then he will understand better where he refuses to live with faith, hope and love. He will better be able to name how he attempts to make truth serve his own idolatry rather than allowing the lies of his life to be exposed to the searing goodness of God. We lead others to God only to the degree that we are aware of how much we flee him, how little we truly desire him, and yet how God is also the deepest, truest and sweetest desire of our hearts. In the midst of this tension we can live in the truest truth. Dan Allender, Leading with a Limp?
Humility comes through humiliation…Oh how difficult it is to not sin in response to the perceived sinfulness of others.
Steve Smallwood:
Thanks. I needed to hear Allender's words again this first day of a new year.
May that reality and transparency invade and take root in my heart and soul in 2008.
I had not known about this site until someone informed me that my private blog had been posted. I want to clarify several things, the first being that my thoughts by no means intend to sound subversive or involved in a conspiracy to deconstruct or cleanse the bureaucracy of AG. The Assemblies of God and my District continues to be nothing short of a blessing since I acquired my minister’s license four years ago. When I posted this blog on my private site, immediately I shared the blog with one of the persons who sat on the interview panel for my missionary evaluation because I value his wisdom and have been a recipient of his impeccable hospitality on many occasions at his home. He continues to remain a confidant and has opened doors for me to receive financial support from my district to aid in reducing my debt. I have no hard feelings towards those who sat on that interview panel, by far; in fact, I would have felt comfortable to express my thoughts at the time of the interview had I not been rushed to leave for work. Each face had the appearance of genuine concern for my future as a missionary.
I am the one who was denied missionary candidacy but NOT FOR BEING SINGLE, but rather for having an outstanding student debt. The thought of being denied due to my marital status was simply an imagination, meaning, my reflection is simply a ‘what if’ scenario. I don’t know anyone personally who has been rejected candidacy for being single. Before the evaluation meeting I had already applied for missionary candidacy with my file kept on pending status until my school loan decreases to a reasonable monthly debt. On that premise, I am on the same page and grateful for AGWM enforcing its “act of mercy." AGWM did the responsible thing, but I also believe it to be a theological correct, legislative decision based on the principle of Christian stewardship. It is the will of God that my financial obligation has precedence over my determination to do overseas missionary work. I suppose that if I felt God instructed me to become a father someday to a child of my own blood that I would then labor to get married as a natural prerequisite of obedience. Otherwise, the alternative would be something imprudent like having a child out of wedlock.
I agree with Both/And-er that AGWM is the most remarkable mission sending agency, which is why I continue to cooperate with them, in partnership, to see the vocational calling of God on my life to become a reality. To AGWM, thank you. I am eternally indebted for your service.
Anonymous 3:00am,
So someone posted your blog entry on this site without your permission? I impressed that you didn't rip into whoever did that.
Thanks for posting your follow up thoughts, it helps bring a more complete picture to the discussion.
This discussion has proven the obvious existence of strong opionions regrading change in the A/G. It's clear to me that almost all here have some sort of commitment to the success of this movement regardless of the nature of their comments.
I do wish to speak some to the (for lack of a better term) "conspiracy attitude". It concerns me greatly. Firstly, I have already gone through my "postmodern crisis" and therefore, completely understand the frustration that comes when it feels like nobody "gets" you or the grief when talented peers are jumping ship because they declare the A/G a lost cause.
I have been through my personal struggles with fundamental truths, the nature of megachurches, the absence of mentoring, and listening to stories of people injured by outright sinful decisions of A/G people in power. I am not naive. This is why Dr. Wood's article is so brilliant. Everyone seems to agree that change is necessary for survival. Our fellowship won't last the next few decades if we do not do some serious adjusting. I'm just worried about the tone of our efforts.
For those cynics out there, I strongly encourage you to climb out of your postmodern angst. Its a horrible place to live. Yes, sometimes our leaders have made mistakes. Yes our community has a right and responsibility to bring accountability. And yes many of your (and my) critiques have validity and should be taken seriously by those who have the organizational power to change things.
But we only exaggerate the unhealthy us/them mentality by supposing motives or imagining the institution as a machine that we have to fight against. This isn't woodstock. The A/G is far more diverse and complicated than the vatican in Springfield. I personally know the intoxicating feeling that comes with envisioning myself as the prophetic voice heralding holy critiques against the wayward kingdom. I think we have to be careful of our motives and stop insisting we know those of others. I think that the only way forward is trust. Sure, things could tank. But that's the way they'd be going anyways so we might as well act as if no one person has the answers.
We need each other. We need the tension and difference of perspectives. But before any of those factors can contribute, we need a culture of trust. Postmodern person (and I include myself), no one is out to get you. :)
A couple of commenters have referred to me as "Dr. Wood." For the record, let me make it clear that I, unlike my father, do not have a doctorate. But that has led me to believe that perhaps some people are confusing me with my father. Please remember that I am George P. Wood, the pastor of a turnaround church in Santa Barbara, California. My father is Dr. George O. Wood, General Superintendent of the US AG in Springfield, Missouri. I wouldn't want anyone to hang my opinions around my father's neck.
George P. Wood
Oh yeah. Sorry George P. My choice of adjective (brilliant) still stands though. :)
I'd like to pitch in that it is quite obvious by now that "anonymous" and "anonymous" are two different people. On the one hand, "anonymous" made bitter, even hateful accusations regarding "discrimination" against singles on the part of AGWM, based upon the experience of "anonymous," who clearly has a submitted and teachable spirit.
May I suggest that there is a fairly simple way to differentiate oneself from others and still remain unidentified. Whether we call ourselves Huckabee or Mickey Mouse, at least we'll be able to identify each other without confusion.
Personally, I'd like to do away with anonymous and pseudonymous posts altogether. Paul opposed Peter to his face, so I'm not sure why we can't name ourselves as we constructively critique our movement. I recognize that some people genuinely fear retribution from their district leaders. But I have the sneaking suspicion that others use retribution as an excuse to post nasty remarks. If so, they should either attach their names to their nastiness so we can evaluate them and their remarks, or they should stop commenting altogether. But, since that probably won't happen, pseudonymous posting is the next best alternative. Perhaps they could choose the names of great theologians as their noms de blog.
Georgie,
Yes, people are afraid. And they have every reason to be. Professors are afraid, pastors are afraid, employees are afraid, students are afraid. Fear of leadership is officially a part of the AG culture and has been for decades. Don't be so naive.
You need to recognize something...
honesty rarely comes in neat little packages tied up with blue ribbons. Little blue bows accompany only political correctness, deception and "cronieism."
Yes, people are frustrated and some are angry. That is the truth, that is a reality. Do you want the truth? Can you handle the truth?
Stop and ponder that question a while before you answer or reply.
Do you want to know what people are already thinking and saying amongst themselves? Or does it have to come with AG sanitizer on it? Raw emotion, gut level honesty, transparency is never clean or easy. As someone earlier mentioned the puss has to come out before the infection can begin to heal.
We are all flawed. Those that post with overzealous passion and emotion are no more or less flawed than those trying to make a name and reputation for themselves in the obvious hopes of some sort of career advancement. Both display the same common weakness: a lack of faith in a good and just God. There lies the infection. But to cover it up at this point with rebukes and platitudes is nonsensical.
That flaw, a lack of faith, exist in epidemic proportions in nearly every post responding to the need for change in the AG and AGTS. Shaming people won't change that.
Let them talk. Most of these contributors sound like they have never been given that most basic opportunity.
They will learn. And so will you if you relax a little and keep your official(son of the GS) opinions to a minimum. Let this conversation flow. Stop blowing the whistle. Nothing vulgar has been written. Are egos likly to get bruised? I hope so. Will someones hip jet knocked out of joint in wrestling with the truth? God, may it be so. And eventually, maybe one day, we'll all be free to love each other exactly the way we are.
George P.: You'd like to do away with anonymous posts altogether? Well, now, the author of Hebrews had some worthwhile things to say, yet he (she?) remained anonymous. (Were he alive today, he might go by the pseudonym MaybePaulMaybeNot.)
Of course, anonymity is a double-edged sword. To Anonymous 2:20 p.m.: We're all free to share, but how about using that freedom responsibly? Your swipe at George P. and his "official (son of the GS) opinions" is over the line. I'll be glad to blow the whistle if you think George is somehow ineligible to do so. "Shaming people" is not inappropriate sometimes, and I think an attitude check is in order here.
"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."
Ephesians 4:29
Anonymous:
My name is George, not "Georgie."
If you think I'm "naive" about the tough issues facing the Assemblies of God, then you don't know me very well (and since you choose to post anonymously, I obviously can't correspond with you to correct your ignorance).
Some time ago, Lane Douglas asked one of you Anonymouses to cite a specific example of retribution from a district official. Oddly, no one has done that yet. All we have are reports of generalized "fear." Why don't you give us an example of such an action? My dad reads this blog. Perhaps if it is as truly egregious an act of retribution as you allege, he'll contact the district official who perpetrated it. (No promises, of course).
Just because I'm my father's son does not mean that I have "official opinions" about anything. I don't run my posts by my dad for approval. Usually I agree with him, sometimes I don't. I put my name to my posts PRECISELY so that people WON'T confuse my opinions with his.
Finally, I haven't asked anyone not to post. I have asked them to post (1) constructive criticism (2) under their own names. Is that really so hard for you Anonymouses to understand? It's very easy (as your post proves) to write sarcastic comments about other people's beliefs and motives. It's entirely different to post that nonsense under your own name when others can take you to task for it. Posting under your own name generally moderates the tone of your comments and tends to keep them constructive, rather than spiteful, bile-filled, snarky, and conspiratorial (which often--thankfully, not always--seems to be the tone of anonymous posts here).
George
My gut feeling about spam is doubly confirmed. The first instance was the brother bringing to this blog's attention that his words were used without his authorization--then twisted to attack people he himself considers innocent. Now our "anonymous" poster further reveals his true colors by "flaming" the moderator.
My two cents is that this, like most other forums, will need the basic accountability that comes with proper identification and membership. That way we can make progress and not get bogged down with characters like the previous poster--who is either not a Christian or is so immature that he/she has nothing constructive to add to the discussion.
George,
Thanks for proving my point. Couldn't have exposed you better myself.
Hey now, stop it.
If you guys don't cool down a little bit God's going to make you all roommates in Heaven. Yes, all of you.
The worst thing I've read is the accusation that someone now is an "unbeliever" because they got under someone's skin. Come on.
Slow down. Take a deep breath. Go have a cup of coffee. Step away from the keyboard....
Anonymous 2:52 PM:
Your point about the anonymity of Hebrews is well taken, although I imagine its original readers knew who had written it.
I'd be far less critical of anonymous posters if (1) the tone of anonymous remarks were less shrill and if (2) I believed that retribution were as widespread in the AG as has been alleged. Do I believe that there are insecure AG leaders who would go after critics who dared to name themselves? Yes. But I also believe that (1) a moderately toned, constructive critique of leadership would be defensible; (2) all AG ministers can appeal discipline up the chain of command to national headquarters; and (3) national headquarters has itself invited constructive criticism. I can't imagine the national leadership siding with vindictive district leaders against ministers whose comments are moderate and constructive. But that's just a personal opinion, not an "official" one.
George
Exposed me for what?
...a quick follow-up: There is no New Testament writer who was anonymous to his intended audience. It is clear that the author of Hebrews was known to his audience--just not to us. In fact, the canonicity of early Christian writings was largely determined by a given texts unambiguous and firm association with a known person of high repute/connection with the earliest witnesses to Christ.
We may be foggy on the matter some 2,000 years later, but everyone knew everyone back then. I find it nearly laughable (if the bile weren't flying so furiously) that "anonymous" speaks about the dear cost of "transparency" but doesn't have the nerve to give so much as a faux username.
George,
Listen, I'm taking "toothless tigers" advise.
I have no intention of blasting or inflaming you or anybody else. My comment about your "official" opinions was simply intended to convey that most of your readers will assume your views to be in line with your father and by extension the AG in general. Therefore your opinions carry substantially more weight and should be measured. It was not intended to offend and you seem somewhat sensitive to that issue. I'm sorry
I will cease any further posts. I had hoped for an honest dialog. Either you are not ready for me or I'm too rough around the edges for you. I'll take my toys to another sandbox. You win.
Please know I'm in no risk of eternal separation from Christ, only the AG.
I just caught where I was taken to task for suggesting that someone is not truly a Christian in posting. That needs to be addressed.
It is pretty important to note that this medium of communication is significantly different than face to face, real relationships. Determinations must be made based entirely upon what is written, and those determinations go /no further / than what is written. The person in question has chosen to adopt a posture of vitriol and attack, sprinkled here and there with a bit of Christianese. The reality is we don't know who or where they are--we only know what they are saying here.
Now, 1 Corinthians 5:9-11 says this:
[I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a SLANDERER, a drunkard or a swindler.]
If what we have heard is not slander, I don't know what is. For my part, I don't think this kind of behavior deserves a "there, there." It is unacceptable and, yes, unchristian. I stand by what I wrote.
Both and er,
Go take a cold shower young man before you become a pharisee.
That is not slander.... it's wisdom.
Anonymous 3:19 p.m.:
You're right. I am sensitive about having my intelligence and good name questioned. That's why I respond rather harshly to ad hominem attacks.
But I'm more than happy to engage in honest dialogue with you and any other Anonymous about any topic you would like to discuss.
As I wrote earlier, my opinions generally align with my dad's, but not always. I am not a proxy for my dad, and I don't run my posts by him for his approval. Make of that whatever you will.
George
Toothless Tiger,
You have no idea how old I am, so I’m not sure why you are calling me “young man.”
As for the charge of Pharisaism, let me note this: In previous posts, “anonymous” has made blanket accusations towards AG leadership (and those who agree with those leaders to any measurable degree) which have included academic myopia, discrimination, immorality, unethical behavior, unbiblical practices, and gross (an even malicious) apathy in the face of poverty, disease, and apostasy. Those who have had the temerity to disagree with “anonymous’” views have had their names made fun of and have been accused of cronyism or cultish devotion. Nearly everything this person has posted has been saturated with an uncharitable, cynical tone.
Now, if such speech doesn’t amount to slander, pray, what does? Honestly, I’m flabbergasted by all of this. Are we to be so insipid and enslaved to relativism that we don’t have the guts to say, “So and so is being civil and Christian, while so and so needs concern himself with change of a more visceral nature before he can tackle revolution in the AG”? How will we discuss the bigger issues if all we do with open offense is wink at it?
Both and er
Trust me, everyone is young when you get to my age.
You are getting yourself all up into a lather. Slow down.
This is how change occurs. This is how new paths are forged. This is how nation states are founded. This dialog resembles nothing less than that which we read about during our constitutional convention in 1776 and many of past General Conventions of which George's father played a part. This is how sausage is made. It's not pretty but in the end nothing is better on a biscuit.
You can't dictate the rules of engagement and hope for honest dialog. This is not a tea party. You can't make everyone take the same tone you prefer. Rise above it. Listen with ears willing to hear not judge.
But listen Both and er, I disagree with you on the slander charge. I think many of these post are revealing a long endured disenfranchisement that must be acknowledged and addressed. I would urge you stop requiring the natives to speak your language before you engage them. How about learning their language and understanding their issues before pulling out the condemnation. I think they call that "contextualization" these days. And if it works for the missionaries across the globe than maybe it will work between these two evidently cross cultures.
Toothless Tiger,
I guess we'll just agree to disagree. My a priori assumption in any discussion between brothers is that personal attacks are out of bounds. Oddly, "secular" forums generally enforce such rules as a matter of course. Here, you are arguing that what in other venues would be immediately chastized by a moderator as flaming is really just good honest talk. I repeat, who hasn't been wounded, disenfranchised, or disappointed?
If speech such as "anonymous" has used is to be allowed with impunity /as a necessary means to affect change/, well, I think I'll opt out and look for change by other means. I just don't see doing wrong so that good can result.
Toothless and Both-and-er I see both of your points.
Toothless I admire your willingness to sit back and stoicly observe. I struggle with Both-and-er in not taking some low blows personally. I love the AG and believe it deserves some restrictions on the manner of critique. You comment on speaking their language was interesting. I'm under 30 and don't what alien language you're referring to. Don't overestimate the generational differences. Being a steam-blower is the same no matter what age you are.
Both-and-er I sympathize with your frustrations. Yet, it seems ol' anonymous threw up is white flag a bit ago. Frankly, I'm tired of losing people. Sure, they got anger problems (a.k.a. sin problems), but some of them have fairly valid reasons. I suspect that anonymous would gladly sit down and talk with Toothless any day but would probably avoid talking to either of us. I wish I could simply stop people from poisoining themselves with their own resentment by just telling them to stop, but it probably won't work. It seems toothless has learned a more effective approach. I say this because I had a toothless friend that helped bring me back into good sense when I was flailing in my own arrogant despair.
Joeltriska,
I was referring to the language of pain, not a postmodern or generational language. Thanks for letting me clarify. That was vague.
It seems to me that is what Jesus does for us. He comes to where we are and speaks our language. We are not clean or even civil when he approaches us. The Holy Spirit convicts and wrangles with us when we are at our most unseemly. We should try to model that grace and charity. It seems you recognized and appreciated that level of grace within your relationship with another declawed lion. But we can't pass on what we have yet to acquire. It seems you have now seen the Light that someone else shined on your path. Now go share that light and join the ranks of the peacemakers. Shalom
Joel--You are correct regarding "anonymous'" abdication. He did express some degree of contrition to George, and I commend him for that. My point in any discussion after that point was in response to accusations made against my posts as being themselves inflammatory.
Let me make clear: I have no problem with robust discussion. I personally thought "agts student" was mistaken on some points, but he was also gracious and in no way slanderous in his postings. Do we want to talk about the impossibility of tongues being "physical," or of mandating a work of the Spirit? Fine. Do we have a problem with the home & foreign mission itineration system? OK. How about the actual spiritual temperature in the regional colleges vs. what is projected? Great. I would even say it is inbounds to declare another poster's argument as so poorly stated that it could be called ridiculous. But to make blanket statements of immorality and corruption, and to insult this site's founder by childishly mocking his name (for example) is wrong. Period. It doesn't make you a "good preacher," nor is it a harbinger of that possibility. It just means you've got a rather public part of your character that still needs to be submitted to Christ.
Everyone has been hurt at one time or another, and everyone has a legitimate beef. But engaging in spiteful attacks because one feels they are a "victim" is a losing game. We need to reach out to the potential Absaloms so they don't end up as that young man did, but allowing them attack others in their frustration won't work.
All this is to clarify. I appreciate "Toothless Tiger's" remark that we are not having afternoon tea, and we cannot dictate that everyone act like PollyAnna. I agree. But the heat we generate should arise from a sound discussion of the matters at hand, and not a venomous flailing about that needlessly wounds and alienates others.
Both/And-er:
I too enjoy robust discussion. What I don't enjoy is the kind of ad hominem attack on me that one of the Anonymi engaged in recently, and for which I took him to task. If memory serves, he said he'd pick up his toys and play in some other sandbox. What I find ironic about some of the Anonymi is that they can dish it out with heaping spoonfulls, but the moment you push back, they claim victim status and walk away. That's not robust discussion, that's childishness. Obviously, I can't dictate the content people post. But I can point out when the tone goes over the line. And I will continue to do so. If that frustrates people who want to engage in ad hominem and conspiratorial arguments, or make quasi-defamatory statements about leaders, then so be it. All I ask is that we stick to issues, not personalities, and remember the Fruit of the Spirit and the Golden Rule when we post.
George
Re: citing a case of retribution...
Just to give you a bit of insight as to one possible reason why people have not given details or actual examples of this. In giving an example they are once again opening themselves up and exposing themselves to further retribution. If they are still in the AG, they can't give an actual example that would be received by those asking for it without giving enough detail to expose themselves. Those who have gone through this don't need the abuse all over again. If they aren't in the AG, they have moved on - and the last thing they probably care about is posting about it.
I know personally, unfortunately. It's easier to just back away quietly than go publicly against the powers that be.
In my case, I posted something (not slanderous or directed at any one individual) on a site with my name attached and was contacted by someone in leadership and told to immediately take it down, or they would use what authority they did have to see to it that my ministry opportunities outside of my own church in the AG would end.
Do I think they had the power to completely accomplish that? No. But they do have some power. Although everyone in their circle of influence (which is quite large) no longer utilize me for anything in ministry - many they are not connected with do. I quietly took down my post and backed away and didn't put up a fight as I felt it would not endear me to those they talked to about me. I've just trusted the Lord to reveal things in His time. It still cost me even though I backed down quietly.
I'm not about to attach my name and details and just further create opportunity to have repercussions simply because of my honesty.
Beentheredonethat:
Thank you for your comment! I think the question of what AG ministers have freedom to post, and what limits denominational officials must observe in their response to those posts, would itself make for a great discussion topic.
George
George--
I couldn't agree more with your statement.
Beentheredonethat--
You raise a legitimate complaint. To deny that ecclesiastical power has been used for vendettas--vendettas declared for merely raising a concern--is to deny history. It has happened to me as well, though the specs were different from your case. Given that, I have no problem with what you say and no problem with your chosen anonymity (clue: Both/And-er isn't /really/ my name). I wish that discussions like this one could solve the coercive "leadership" some do in fact practice (to the detriment of those true leaders among us), but I fear it is a flaw as deep as the sinful human heat that only Christ can solve (not meaning at all that we shouldn't talk about it).
My problem is when people use their chosen anonymity to "let fly" and say things they wouldn't ever say in person. More to the point, I have a problem with people spitefully making sweeping accusations at all. You give a specific case, and refer to a specific person. That is quite different than what has been happening here with a couple of posters.
Toothless--
Thanks for the language clarification. I couldn't agree more. I have a friend and a mentor who is solely responsible for reigniting my hopes for the A/G simply because he listened to me whine and was able to help me through some of my disillusionment. We need more of you!
Both-and-er
Well said. You make good distinction between an appropriate use for anonymnity and when we cross the line into abuse.
George--
Thanks for taking that one poster to task. Hopefully, he/she will choose to come play in this sandbox another time. :)
Wow. Had no idea this comment thread was still well and alive.
Beentheredonethat...
Thank you VERY much for finally giving a concrete example of why people may need to post anonymously. I am still opposed to anonymity, but the tone of your post led me to believe that you were sincere and so I respect your decision to remain veiled.
It is unfortunate that you had to face this type of overbearing and manipulative leadership. Unless a blogger posts something derogatory or defamatory, the only reason, I can see, that leadership would mandate someone pull a post would be fear of exposure.
Unfortunately, though, I fear it is going to take more examples like this to bring this into the light. As long as people remain afraid and hide from such leaders... their methods remain hidden. Only once people stand up to them and force their hand will their methods be exposed. The good news is that a blog like this receiving national attention will quickly give such a victim a forceful audience.
Revolutions (and rennovations) are built on the foundation of martyrs willing to be the first to stand up and take the hit. Posting under a real name with real case studies might be a web-based form of martyrdom that brings light to some of the darker corners of our movement.
rThis blog reminds me of my family.
The heat doesn't get turned up in our household unless we start talking about theology, church politics, or legalism.
Those are the topics that provoke my brother and i into "robust dialogue." Anyone from the outside of our family who doesn't understand our culture might think we are ready to kill each other.
Yet, there is no one i would give my life for more quickly.
The main reason we get into such disagreeements is because we are both strong leaders. Strong leaders have strong opinions. Strong opinions accompany fierce passion. Fierce passion, unguarded, can quickly become a destructive force in our life and in the lives of others.
Sometimes my brother and i end up resorting to namecalling and slander. Afterall, we are human. In the heat of the moment, it gets personal. However, Bothander is correct, i think, in identifying this as sin.
My brother and i have to come together and ask each other's forgiveness. Sometimes, we resort to "not having these conversations any more." But the more i think about it, the more i am convinced that they are necessary. By saying we will not have these conversations, we throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Can we not overcome the temptation to slander but still passionately debate our positions with passion?
The only way to cut another diamond is to use another diamond. Even if i cannot convince my brother of my argument...i force him to critically think about his position....he does the same for me.
However, if you take a hammer to a diamond....it will shatter. Or, if you put it into an oven and raise the temperature to 1405 F, then it will completely vanish, leaving trace amounts of carbon dioxide. We must gaurd our own speech and not allow the humanity in others' to catch us off gaurd. Expect it.
We can form each other...or we can run the controversy out of the blog.
"Anonymous" left...and now the blog will certainly be much more cordial....and a lot more boring.
Am i the only one who has thought since he started posting, this blog became worth reading? I hadn't noticed Toothless Tiger or Both/ander post before he started posting...both of whom i have enjoyed reading.
No offense to anyone...but i think the reason this blog (if it is really widely read - which i doubt) has been picked up lately is because there has been something interesting to read!!
For the record--why is there a push to use our real names? Respect the reasoning behind the men or women who choose to use pseudonymns. Obviously, there are reasons. I am not interested in becoming a martyr for the AG.
Personally, a blog has more weight if it is written with a pseudonymn because i know they do not have to abide by any sort of convention. There is no perceived political motivation behind it. I am not saying that anyone has posted anything with impure motivations. I am simply saying that we all have reasons for doing things...and as long as we are humans, this will never change....not until we are perfected...after we die.
Diamond Cutter...
Your illustration of you and your brother is a good one. I thought you were describing my family at Christmas. My brother and I, despite having grown up in the same church and having graduated from the same seminary are many, many times at polar opposite ends of a theology discussion. So I know what you are talking about.
I do have to, however, disagree with you on your conclusions towards the end of your post.
The purpose of this blog is not to avoid boredom, it is to seek advancement. Your right... the blog did have a bit more excitement when anonymous posted and, I'm sure, many people found it more exciting. But that is nothing more than the same reaction many people have when attending a NASCAR race or going to a hockey game. Many fans go to see the crashes or the fights... not the actual race/game itself.
Anonymous was out of line and got called on it. When people didn't agree with him (or her) ... they left. That kind of "I'm taking my ball and going home" attitude does not promote advancement and, as such... does not help the blog. Sure... the exciting sideshow ended... but we are not here for the drama.
As to your conclusions on anonymity giving a blogger more "weight," have to disagree with you there, too. Not revealing who you are means you don't have to take responsibility for your words and you don't have to back up your claims. You can critique others and attack leadership all the while avoiding such arrows yourself. How in the world does this lend more "weight" to a post?
Here's an example. Go back to the "Anonymous" poster you cited as helping to make this blog worth reading. Consider two of his/her posts:
Raw emotion, gut level honesty, transparency is never clean or easy.
George, Thanks for proving my point. Couldn't have exposed you better myself.
C'mon, seriously! A person hiding behind anonymity wants to talk about "transparency" and "exposing" others. And you feel that gives this person readability and credibility?
In relation to "leaving to another sandbox Anonymous" -
I agree with you 100% about "anonymous" posts that seek to slander or get nasty. The "anonymous" blogger crossed the line. However, I wished he toned it down and kept playing...i thought he had SOME great things to to say. That is my opinion. I also completely DISAGREED with him on MANY items.
In relation to writing anonymously -
First, for myself, since i am a naturally politically oriented person, i have to consistently check my own motives in why i am doing or writing things. You may not struggle with this as much as i do. But i do not want ONE MORE filter i have to work through in thinking through these issues. My own filter - the one that says, "my name - that sounds very good...George O. Wood will like that!!" - would constantly be poking at me. Again, i am not trying to imply that anyone else struggles with that...but i do. Pseudo-anonymity does not allow me the possibility of receiving any sort of accolade for my intelligent writing, witty responses, or well crafted arguments outside of this forum.
Second, I struggle with wondering about the motives of anyone who chooses to allow their name to be posted. Again...i am not suggesting anyone who chooses to write with their own name maintains impure motives. I am simply saying...i cannot get around the fact that i will wonder what sort of agenda you have. I am sorry for this...i really am. It is MY weakness. I love the idea of a "culture of trust." But i am not a "Kingdom Now" theologian. I don't think it is possible in a format like this one. I think it is far closer to possible in face to face situations. I will always struggle with wondering about peoples' motives until i have met them personally and had the opportunity to get to know them. This is one of those tensions that, i believe, as long as we live in a fallen world, in fallen bodies, with deceitful hearts will remain
Is a "culture of trust" possible in a format like this one, once removed from face to face encounters?!? Technology is great...but it is limiting and impersonal....whether or not i attach my real name or not.
Third, some people legitimately do not care if you "know" who they are.
Fourth, i think we would all be foolish to believe that the example of "Beentheredonethat" and "Bothander" (although he did not specify what happened to him) could not occur again. I think there is a big difference in being martyred for Christ and being martyred for an organization or as a result of someone's personal vendetta. Until we receive our redeemed bodies...we look through the glass darkly. In 2,000 years of brutal Christian history, political maneuvering, holy wars, the Inquisition, etc, etc, etc, why should i assume we are making progress? I will never assume all of Christendom is Christian. Even if they are...they still sin.
Since i have not written anything to slander anyone...i would appreciate if we respected peoples' choices to remain anonymous. We have our reasons.
In a job i have worked, at the end of my time with the people i work for, i hand out evaluation forms. In every case, if someone has something positive to say, they leave their name. On the other hand, if they have something negative to say, they choose to remain anonymous. I guess i could choose to only read the ones with the names attached. Afterall, i know who they are...they are real people who i can evaluate based on my own interaction with them. However, i try to read even the nasty ones. (Most of the time i know who they are anyways.) Why do i do this? I know i cannot please everyone all the time. But i do know that even "anonymous" evaluations have SOME truth in them. It is with that truth that i have to struggle with to become a better.... It takes discernment, wisdom, and the ability to refrain from taking it too personally to transform these negative evaluations into something positive, useful, and able to form me.
I also think it is ironic that "anonymous" used George's name against him (i am not agreeing with this...only that it happened). That is one drawback to using our real names...Anonymous assumed to know too much about George. It sounds like he was wrong on more than one front.
In relation to boredom -
You're right. The purpose of this blog is not to give us something to do or something to read. I think you're right Lane.
But...you knew there was a but, right? I think God can use anything to accomplish His purposes...and i have no doubt that God desires the AG to continue to pursue advancement (i am assuming you mean reform...hopefully).
I remember a friend of mine who went to church because of a young lady who attended services there. He was NOT there for honorable purposes. He eventually gave his life to the Lord. It didn't work out with the girl...but it did work out with Jesus.
My point is this: if more people were reading the blog because of the heat....great. Maybe they will continue to follow it and something positive can happen. The more people the better. I was simply looking at the cup half full. I agree with you that half of the cup was empty...slander, namecalling, etc. It was definitely half empty.
If i am totally off kilter on one or more of these issues...call me on the carpet. However, i don't think we should force or push people to use their real names.
I think anonymity, when properly used and not hidden behind, is fine. For me personally, and i recognize this isn't the case for everyone, but for me, it adds credibility because i CAN'T wonder about someone's motives. i only have what they have typed....not any "conspiracy thoughts" racing through my head (which i have already covered....this is MY weakness).
Toothless....Bothander....what do you think? Why do you choose to remain anonymous?
I'll start by stating that I think the whole discussion over anonymity is also a sideshow. But I will address it--briefly--because of my own choice.
For clarity, there are different types of anonymity. Someone who hits the "anonymous" button on the blog when posting not only hides his/her own identity, they set the stage for confusion. Anyone can (and several did) hit that button, resulting a a bevy of confusing, semi-clarifying posts (i.e., "I'm "anonymous #2" or "anonymous 8:43 pm" or whatever). That bogs things down. I and toothless tiger and now diamond cutter have avoided that by using pseudonyms.
As for the kind of anonymity we have chosen, each person's reason may vary. Like any shield, it can be used for good or ill. I have a number of reasons for believing that in my case, it is better not only for me but for others that I keep my name to myself. If I use that anonymity to start bashing others then I am abusing it and employing it for precisely the opposite motive which prompted me to choose it in the first place.
Anyway, I think the subject of abuse of ecclesiastical power through a "good old boy" system is a great topic. Can it be avoided? Can it be addressed from the top down--when that would imply more denominationalism than the AG is bent towards? Is it completely local and personal?
Diamond Cutter:
I couldn't disagree more with your concluding statement: "Personally, a blog has more weight if it is written with a pseudonymn
because i know they do not have to abide by any sort of convention."
This doesn't make sense to me. Let's say our General Superintendent wrote a blog. You're saying that it would have MORE weight if it were anonymous or pseudonymous than if he wrote it under his own name. I sincerely doubt that would be true. There's a big difference between "Dr. Wood said such and such about the AG" and "Some anonymous guy said such and such about the AG." For all we know, some anonymous guy could be the ex-janitor of AG HQ, fired for stealing trinkets off secretary's desks, and he has a grudge.
The second part of your sentence indicated that anonymous/pseudonymous posts would have more weight because they didn't have to follow conventions. Personally, I think abiding by conventions (say, the Golden Rule, or the prohibition of gossip and slander, or the Fruit of the Spirit) raises the level of the blog. It forces posters and commenters to focus on issues rather than personalities. All sorts of personal attacks can be done under cloak of anonymity. You tend to temper the tone and character of your remarks when people know who you are.
By the way, one question which I can't remember if I've ever asked: Where in the Bible do we find examples of anonymous criticism? There may be some, but I imagine they're the exception rather than the rule. Moses confronting Pharaoh, Nathan confronting David, Jesus confronting the Pharisees, and Paul confronting Peter: these are the normative examples of face-to-face criticism. The nearest analogy for non-personal communication media such as the internet is named posting, in my opinion. I'm more than happy to be corrected on this point, from the Bible.
George
Diamond Cutter... BothAnder...
Your last two posts (7:30 and 8:24 respectively) were both appreciated. You gave me some perspective I did not previously have.
DC... I agree with you that writing anonymously removes the temptation in wanting your name recognized. I had not thought of that and would never, in a million years, claim that I do not wrestle with this. We all do. But writing from the far reaches of the East Coast and being an absolute "nobody" in the AG... that thought had not crossed my line in the context of this blog.
And for the record, by "advancement" I do mean "reform."
Bothander... your point is very well taken. It's just that over the past month or so, the number of anonymous posters throwing out claims of witch hunts, abuses of power, and using slander has increased dramatically. This leads me to believe that the REASON for people using anonymity is not entirely for "protection." So in this blog setting, I still think there needs to be:
1.) Credibility behind any claim of abuse of power. (Otherwise, it is simply a "rumor.")
2.) Accountability when criticizing a "named" person. You shouldn't be able to punch someone who can't otherwise hit back and defend themselves. Your trying to remove the speck in your brother's eye while hiding from allowing us to see the log in yours.
Not sure how we achieve those two things, but they are desperately needed. The web-based world cannot operate devoid of the ethics of the face-to-face world.
I agree with the intent of both the last posts. Someone using a pseudonym must measure up to a higher standard--not a lower one--when posting, especially if that post is a critique. There are other reasons besides "fear of retribution" for using a pseudonym.
Diamond cutter, I agree with your post about some of the reasons for anonymity. You eloquently described my main reason for anonymity: My flesh wants to impress. Anonymity helps keep that in check. I also desire that my comments and ideas stand or fall based on their merit alone, not my position, personality, education or anything else.
To Lane and George P: You must realize that when people state that they are afraid to speak, challenging them to come forward and speak is not an effective response. That never works. I have seen this in every organization I have worked for, Christian and secular alike.
Whether you have concrete proof or not, you know you have a problem when people indicate a fear of reprisal. Whether their fear is warranted in your eyes or not, the fact that they are afraid is a significant problem in itself. honest discussion is easily stifled by fear.
Leaders set the tone for an organization and create the culture. Therefore, I believe this problem can ONLY be addressed from the top down, but it can be addressed. Building a culture of trust where everyone is free to speak is imperative for the future success of any organization.
Asking for dialogue through this blog was a good start. Your response to that dialogue speaks volumes to those who are reading. Some are probably tuning in to see if this is a safe place. Some are watching to see what leadership will do next. For better or worse, the written and active response of leadership does and will affect many.
George P. I do not know the extent of your leadership role in the A/G. I admit to being one of those who initially confused you with your father. Perhaps it is unfair that some will make assumptions about you due to your name. I admit that my opinion about the leadership of the A/G has been altered by your responses to this blog.
I will also admit that since learning of this blog and reading the tone and content of the responses. I have been praying for the students, leadership and denomination as a whole. I believe that God wants to do good things here.
Another Purposely Anonymous Voice:
Aside from having a famous first and last name, I have no official leadership role in the AG. I'm the pastor of a small, turnaround church in Santa Barbara. And that's it. I'm not on any sectional, district, or national committees. On occasion I'm asked to write for denominational publications on devotional themes. And that's it.
The reason I blog on this site and my own two sites is because (1) it gives me an outlet to express ideas, (2) I want my church and the movement of which it's a part to be wildly successful, (3) I love dialogue--debate, even, and (4) I need intellectual stimulation from other thoughtful people.
Am I touchy about the anonymous ad hominem stuff? Yes, for two reasons: (1) I'm pretty defensive about anything that my reflect badly on my dad, whom I love and think is a great leader; and (2) I don't like people making assumptions about me simply on the basis of who my dad is.
Having said that, I've reread many of the above comments and I genuinely want to apologize if I've in anyway stifled conversation on this blog by calling out what I think are mean remarks. I don't want to stifle dialogue. Anyone who knows me knows that I'm an open-minded guy who thinks just about everything should be on the table with regard to the AG, if only so that we can better reach our world for Christ. My only intent has been to try to get us--all of us, but especially tne Anonymi--to be a bit more civil in tone.
I recognize that some out there in AG land are genuinely afraid of their leaders. I've never had that experience, so I need to work hard on being more sympathetic. But like Lane wrote, I think some are using that fear to be unChristlike in the tone of their remarks. That's all.
So, on the issues, have at it! But in how we approach the issues, please let's be kind to our leaders.
George
Another Purposely...
Very good words. Seriously. I do agree with you.
If I may, just for a moment, speak a word in GPW's defense... having never met the guy and living over 3,050 miles from him... I applaud his efforts. He has been raked over the coals by some for something that was not in his decision power... who his dad is. He has fielded those critiques with grace and has, to this point (IMHO) not stifled anything.
To clarify, I have, on numerous occasions maintained a stance made up two parts on anonymity:
1. Those using it must work all the harder at abstaining from slander. Additionally, claims of impropriety must be backed by evidence.
2. Using anonymity brings an issue to light, but it will not bring change in the AG. Since our Districts operate as independent organizations, and our churches celebrate autonomy... an anonymous post means the situation could be happening anywhere within the continental United States and could have happened anytime within the past 50 years. How can leadership respond to that???
So I am not against anonymity if all we want to do is continue blogging over the next several years. But if we want this blog to be an agent of change, we are going to have to start fielding actual, concrete case-studies brought forward by people who, themselves, are willing to surrender to accountability in the process of coming forward.
If I can follow up with a bit more to back my position...
I worked for 10 years in the professional ocean rescue field. I was an officer on a leadership team that oversaw 185 guards protecting over 11 miles of coastline. Within the short span of 4 months (Mid-May to Mid-September) we watched over 5,000,000+ tourists entering the Atlantic Ocean.
In this field, we fielded complaints daily. Sometimes on the order of 20-30/day. Since the average age of a guard was 21, we knew they could make some knucklehead decisions. BUT, CONVERSELY... we also knew that many complaints came from people simply unhappy that they weren't getting their way.
Our official position in the Dispatch office was that NO complaint at any time would be fielded by us unless the caller was willing to give us their name and address. In defense of the guard, we knew we had to be able to research and further substantiate a complaint if need be.
If the caller refused, we politely thanked them and hung up the phone. When they did follow through, we would dispatch a unit to investigate the guard and question them thoroughly. On several occasions in which I was personally dispatched, the complaint was substantiated and an unsafe guard was relieved of duty. This meant lives had been potentially saved through an act of prevention.
But it had to start with someone willing to call and give their name.
Concerning pseudo-anonymity:
People should be allowed to express their opinion pseudo-anonymously if they so choose. This is not China. I am surprised that this is even an issue. Their will always be spammers…it is the nature of the internet. However, discernment allows us to analyze even the false accusations that people bring to “light.”
I recognize there are people reading this blog who have all sorts of graduate degrees and post-grad degrees…was I the only person who recognized that their was one “anonymous” who’s writing style gave him/her away as being the same person? I think Both/And-er pointed this out earlier.
I agree with George and Lane about accountability. But, this only stands if the person writing anonymously is using the freedom to lambast with venomous accusations…which did happen with one blogger. But, again, I think most of us recognized the nasty remarks as being from the same person. Obviously, sweeping generalizations have to be backed up…
Concerning bringing issues to “light:”
Personally, I am not a fan of bringing to light any circumstances through this format unless they are vague enough as to prevent this from becoming some sort of online tattletale program. I don’t think it is Biblical. The Bible calls for face to face encounters. This, although great for think-tank type discussions is a shadow of how real relationships work.
Some verses to clarify a Biblical position…concerning confrontation, accusation, and conflict:
Matthew 7:3 – I analyze myself.
Matthew 5:23 – I make things right with the offending or offended party personally – not via an online megaphone.
Matthew 18:15-17 – Involve others…but to this extent?
Romans 12:17-19 – Trust in God that He will have the final say.
Concerning this blog’s purpose:
Instead, I see this blog as a way of getting a feel for how others are thinking regarding the issues that face the AG and Christianity in general. I think it is better to speak broadly and generally about these issues. This way we can comb the general attitudes and opinions amongst this blog’s readers. This would be a great format to express doubts, wonder aloud, debate, ask for suggestions, etc. I just figured out that this blog is actually the comment portion of an original post that only six people contribute to. Maybe we should take it somewhere else, and let anyone drive the agenda. Theoretically, that is what this comment box is being utilized for presently. If this blog is not meant for that…maybe we should consider starting something like that. I do not want to usurp the purpose of this blog. People do not simply want to respond…
Concerning the present comment page’s commitment to change:
I guess I am trying to figure out how change is impossible if people do not use their real names. I remain unconvinced. AGTS student #1 brought up a whole heap of issues…to which many on this blog-community responded, including an AGTS professor who said he/she would bring it up to their fellow faculty when the new year starts. I admit, this all happened before I discovered this site…but it sounds like there was quite a bit of good discussion, including an invitation from the president to speak personally with him!
How is that not fulfilling the purpose of this blog?
Both/and-er,
I agree with you. The whole subject of anonymity is a sideissue.
Clarify what you meant by the following statement:
“Someone using a pseudonym must measure up to a higher standard--not a lower one--when posting, especially if that post is a critique.”
George P.,
I do not think you needed to apologize. Most of us recognized you were being chastized…you do sound like an open-minded person and I would probably very much enjoy a conversation with you in some coffee house somewhere. I still disagree with you, though, about the anonymity issue for the reasons stated.
If you can tell me where I have criticized leadership…I will tell you where to find anonymous criticism in the Bible. Obviously, I do not believe in it either. And…I certainly do not intend for my writing to be canonized…
Please do not lump all of the pseudo-anonymous writers into one heap…All of us are not using the same freedom of anonymity to criticize. Personally, pseudo-anonymity seems the simplest, least complicated way to dialogue. I have not personally spoken specifically and choose to remain anonymous because I am not interested in becoming a “martyr for the AG,” nor make a name for myself, nor be recognized. I am interested in ideas, theology, ecclesiology, methods, etc.
You said:
“(1) I'm pretty defensive about anything that my reflect badly on my dad, whom I love and think is a great leader; and (2) I don't like people making assumptions about me simply on the basis of who my dad is.”
If you wrote pseudo-anonymously, you wouldn’t have to worry about either of those issues. Just a thought…hey…I am not telling you to write pseudo-anonymously. But, maybe the pseudo-anonymous writers want to avoid similar issues that you face. Assumptions based on name or position can be poisonous. I know you would agree with that…
Concerning blog “weight:”
That was my opinion and it remains my opinion. Let me clarify that I was speaking about THIS comment page (which I just discovered was a comment page for your original post...someone originally just gave me the link to this page, not the original page). I wouldn’t mind in the least if your father wrote pseudo-anonymously. In fact, I wouldn’t put it past him. But, whether he does or chooses to reveal his name, it is his choice, and that choice is determined by what he thinks will be the most effective for him and the conversation. Sometimes names can distract people of the purpose of something.
For the purpose of a comment box or idea thinktank…I think the freedom to remain anonymous, used for the positive, can promote the expression of opinions and ideas unregulated from deceptive motivations and fear of retribution (to name only 2). Of course it will be abused…but, like I have harped on over and over, don’t you think we are all smart enough to recognize it? Those of us who have employed pseudonyms don’t want to be in the limelight, for whatever reason, but we still want to express our opinions, AND UNTIL WE ARE FOUND ABUSING THIS PRIVILIDGE…please respect peoples’ decision to remain pseudo-anonymous.
I would initially welcome the rejected janitor’s comments equal to that of your father. I evaluate people based on what they have to say, not who they are. You judge a prophet by his prophecies, not his reputation. However, if the jilted custodian’s comments become obviously subversive and inappropriate, I make an intellectual decision to disregard his input. I feel that every human who bears the image of God (and last time I checked….we all do) can make a positive contribution to the community, whether or not they are the General Superintendent.
If your dad had his own blog, I would probably read it. He consistently makes positive contributions to the Kingdom. I would read him because he is a good writer, not because he is the General Sup. His books on the Psalms are wonderful.
Concerning unregulated conventions:
I am not saying that people do not have any sort of conventions in their lives…but those are constants, regardless, of whether or not they are posting on this site. Based on the content of my blogs, can you tell me where I have not abided by those conventions? Again, if one is a Christian, they abide by those. They MAY SIN. But they then need to repent. This can happen with a name attached or not.
People who have nothing to lose…also have nothing to gain.
Lane,
Some people DO NOT WISH TO BECOME MARTYRS FOR THE AG. The whole online martyrdom thread….i don’t buy it. But, I agree with you on that accountability deal (for those who are abusing anonymity)…and, for the record, your family holidays are probably a real kick! I love mine.
Is it me…or does this feel like a “Seinfeld” episode?
DC,
I simply meant that if someone is going to avoid the weight that comes with posting with their true name, then they need to be extra responsible with what they say to compensate. Posting under a pseudonym /could/ lead to laziness in expression, shoddy arguments, and unsubstantiated accusations. There's no such thing as a free lunch, and if we don't keep ourselves in line and make sure our posts have a great deal of merit, others will call us on it. "Anonymous" paid a high price for his choice to stay behind a curtain--everyone who has posted since then has discarded almost everything "revolutionary" he said as not credible. On the other hand, George's transparency gives him some play.
(And yes, this dead horse of a discussion on anonymity is beginning to seem like a Seinfeld episode.)
I also want to clarify that when I referred to a personal experience with abuse of ecclesiastical power, it /was/ in the AG--but it was not in the /U.S./ AG. My point there was to identify with beentheredonethat and grant the point as well as agree that it was a legitimate topic. At the same time I can say legitimately that I am not being a loose cannon with unsubstantiated remarks, since the individuals I interfaced with are not part of this fellowship.
DC:
Thanks for your long post!
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on "weight" issue. We cannot always evaluate the words, sometimes we must also evaluate the man. When I served on a jury, we sometimes had to determine a case between discrepant testimony from two witnesses. We had to take into account the relative characters and qualifications of the witnesses. For example, in one case, a police officer and a gang banger testified in a possession/intent to sell case. They contradicted each other. But it was clear to us on the jury that the policemen was a trained investigator with a disinterested personal motive. On the other hand, the gang banger was--well--neither. It was a combination of words and character that tilted the jury toward a verdict. So, if a complicated question of denominational governance came up, I'd tend to give more weight to the General Superintindent than to the janitor, because governance falls within the former's realm of expertise. On the other hand, if we were talking about how best to clean the glass on the fourth floor, I'd listen to the janitor. Everyone has an area of expertise, and in my opinion, we should prefer people who through experience and/or study have made themselves familiar with a topic.
But again, we'll have to agree to disagree. And I'll admit that there may be some issues on which neithed a named poster nor an anonymous/pseudonymous poster has greater credibility, so the question of naming or not naming themselves is moot.
George
I like where this is going. There seems to be common ground being formed. Personally, I think it would be interesting to know more about each of the contributors. It would allow for us to better understand where their opinions come from and why they believe what they do. But I realize that is a pipe dream and not the purpose of this venue. I agree with DC.
Individually, in our own spheres of influence, we must admit and begin to mitigate what I believe is a culture of fear and/or backlash that apparently exists for many. The prospect of reprisal is a serious issue for those who are still deciding if this hill (the AG or the seminary, etc.)is something worth suffering for. The more information one gives about themselves or a bad situation they have witnessed or suffered from, the less safe they feel. That has to begin to change one person at a time, one relationship at a time.
I agree with “Another purposely anonymous voice.” The issues should stand or fall based on their own merit.
I stand by my last statement, I completely disregard the idea that slander has occurred within these posts. It seems like I am a lone voice of dissent on that, but so be it. Strong, inflammatory, heated language was used, yes. Yet as I read the issues that surrounded those heated remarks I find myself asking questions, not making judgments. For instance:
Is it in fact discriminatory to limit opportunity for single ministers? Does that occur? Is that acceptable? Is there a policy? If so how did that policy come to be?
How does a student come to the end of seven years of AG education only to realize they are disqualified for ministry because of the debt they accumulated in the process? If this happens, that is a major failure. Does it happen? Should it happen? How can we keep it from happening again? Could this be a result of the lack of mentoring some AGTS students complain about?
Did the AG in particular and/or evangelical Christianity as a whole completely miss the AIDs crisis? Are we still missing it?
Did we as movement allow prominent ministers in our movement to abuse their power financially, spiritually and biblically? Is that an accurate view of our history? Do we have some explaining to do or not? If so what are we doing to curb that perception?
Do the AGTS students have legitimate concerns? It seems that one professor seems to think so. Should they be supported in an attempt to start a student led church? Who will support them and how?
Do local church leaders shun seminary students? If so, why? Can the seminary develop a better mentoring/discipleship program?
Should the seminary adapt to student concerns? Does the introduction of competition and the consumer mentality within academia have something enlightening to reveal about post-modernity?
Someone asked about ‘Keys’ intimating control issues and leadership concerns. Are we actively pursuing healthy succession planning for the coming generation of leaders in our movement?
I’m sure I missed a few of the issues. But these are at least some of the bigger issues I read that are hidden within the hotter rhetoric. These are important issues. And I can see why they would evoke strong feelings. However, the issues are bigger and more important than trying to get someone to confess and repent for an overflow of emotional anonymous venting.
Let me suggest this: If the post is deemed to have absolutely no value or if a contributor has disclosed a sinful heart within their discourse, we should do as Shem and Japheth did by covering the shame of their naked sin and delete the post. If the power exists to delete a post and the choice is made instead to publicly expose and rebuke, I would wonder where those convictions stem from. Taking someone to task publicly is a tenuous position. Especially when employing cunning reprisals to do so.
George, I think you have done a good job. No, you’ve done an excellent job of starting the ball rolling. I can’t imagine how much time and effort it takes. Your original article from Kotter's insights was a good primer and guide. While I recognize the tone of some of the post may have been upsetting, (some of which may have gotten under my skin too) they appear to have revealed what you now courageously and honorably recognize. There is a tension and uncertainty within this forum about what your participation means. You did an excellent job of clarifying. My sense is that unanswered question created a degree of anxiety the anonymous poster revealed. I also admit to not being certain of your role until now.
If I could steal ‘encourager's’ role for a second, I would like to see the development of a slightly thicker skin within this whole process. Thicker skin is essential for good dialog. But we must not develop callous hearts. In light of our long church history, these discussions, in tambor and tone, are innocuous when compared to the heated oratory our church fathers engaged in over the centuries. Those men had thick skin and were willing to dig through a pile of mud if a nugget of gold could be found at the bottom. Why? Because the kingdom of God was worth it. I think it still is.
George P.,
My apologies for the long post. : ) I will resist the urge this time.
I actually agree with you mostly. I think my previous writing reflects a common aversion to authority/leadership/or "big" names because of a generalized skepticism from the corruption and past abuses (which certainly does NOT apply to your father!) in GENERAL...not only in a spiritual context, but also political, educational, athletic, etc.
By this i reference a shift in our society that once trusted leaders unconditionally, but now tolerates them or at worst rejects them completely to begin something new (becoming their own leaders...especially in a spiritual context). It is in this sense that an anonymous posting might have more weight. I know a lot of burnt out people (including clergy) who might rather listen to the janitor (i am assuming you are using this as hyperbole as much as i am).
I think this may be why someone like Barak Obama continues to emphasize his LACK of experience in his attempt to get elected to the White House. He is freshly inexperienced. I think some people resonate with that. Sometimes i fall into that category, too. I have to recognize this possible weakness in my own makeup.
General question,
How much of the "aversion to leadership" (if you would agree with me is a common symptom in many burnt out North Americans) could be stemmed by a team approach to ministry, especially a team of teaching pastors?
Is a personality-cult in a church EVER a good thing in terms of unity, spiritual health, etc? (By personality-cult i mean both a prominent "recognized" figure and their "exclusive" teaching responsibilities)
When a church does not have the resources (say a smaller rural church....or a smaller church in general), how can the lead pastor spread around the responsibility?
I am not saying this needs to be perfectly equally spread...but i have never been apart of a team that worked like that in relation to "preaching." But, i admit, i am intriqued...
DC...
Thanks for the long post. You really took the time to develop your thoughts and I enjoyed reading them.
In regards to your last response to me regarding martyrdom, let me respond by saying that I am not trying to push people into anything they are not ready for. My answers are stemming from the fact that over the past 2 months or so, there has been some general unrest on the part of the bloggers here in regard to a perceived lack of progress. After a while, people sense the futility of only writing about the issues and not seeing change.
My point was simply that until SOMEONE steps out and is willing to face possible repercussions for identifying an abuse of power or infraction of leadership... the blog remains simply a discussion board. The GP is not going to respond to generalities that are simply rumors posted by anonymous bloggers. This isn't because they don't care or don't want to, but rather because they have nothing to respond to.
As to your comments in your last post regarding team leadership, I am with you on investigating this concept 100%. I have, in more than one comment, recommended a book entitled "The Starfish and the Spider: The Power of Leaderless Organizations." It is an absolutely fascinating investigation into team-based models which deny any one person high-levels of visibility or authority. Although it is not a Christian book, I believe it contains wisdom for us to learn how to build systems based on a plurality of eldership where a lead pastor exercises their gift of leadership without having to be the reincarnation of Christ to their congregation.
DC:
Patrick Lencioni also has written a very good book on teamwork called "The Five Dysfunctions of a Team." I think many church staffs would be well served by studying his ideas on the subject.
I have seen and been a part of "team led" churches before, ones in which there is a deliberate attempt to spread executive power over a committee, board, team of "teaching pastors," or however else you want to frame it. Inevitably--at least in my experience and hearing--it either ends badly or is terribly inefficient. I know this statement will comes off as heavy-handed, intolerant, and at odds with the raging Zeitgeist of postmodernism we find ourselves in, but I think having a "lead leader" that casts vision and makes hard decisions is biblical. (Note: The NT is terribly silent on matters of church order--when I say it is "biblical" I mean that it is consistent with Scriptural principles and examples, which is often the most anyone can say about their stand on church order issues.) Group decisions are important--even to the choosing of our leaders--but to attempt that model /permanently/ sounds a lot better than it works. More to the point, I am not sure that spreading out the decision-making power will solve the issue of its abuse. There is no easy, structural or man-made way of getting around the root of that problem, which is human fallenness. We're all going to have to live with each other and wrestle through it with the help of Christ.
Both/And-er:
My experience with team leadership is similar. I've seen that tried at two different churches, and it failed at both. I think there's a happy medium between vesting all the church's authority in one person and vesting it all in a team. The happy medium is a where a strong senior pastor leads an equally strong team, where the pastor views his role as empowering individuals to use their gifts, and where the team seems itself as complementing the pastor's leadership.
George
George--
Ditto. I'm with you on that one.
George...
How about making this a new post for discussion? Team-based vs. Single-leader based leadership? I would love to see people's opinions and hear of experiences... but being 195 comments into this thread... we almost have a blog within a blog.
Lane
Perhaps a better title for the discussion would be centralized vs. decentralized leadership.
Another good topic:
Church Planting VS. Turnaround Church
VERY relevant for our movement.
I was originally shown this blog back when I was in Massachusetts for Christmas break and my opinion was sought on the issue of being single/ministry. It's interesting to see how that fleshed out in the conversation and I am sort of glad to have stayed out of the fray ;)
It has led to some further questions about the nature of this blog and all together what "change" actually means?
This question may be because many of the US Presidential candidates focus their platform around around a rather liquid "change" motif.
Is it just me or does it seem like many are arguing over who can be the most "changeist". I think the same thing can be said or at least thought when it comes to this issue of change within the A/G.
I deal with this all the time with my family; who dealt with a very disastrous situation with the New York district. One single (not marital status single) man turned my entire family away from the A/G. Even worse was when I decided to go to this man's Alma Mater, Zion Bible College. I had to deal with constant A/G bashing and be the receiver of many jokes. Yet, my passion for the ministry and the vision that is the A/G goes beyond what any man or beurcracy can do to it.
I often tell my family and many of my friends that you can't throw rocks at the house you're in and I think the same thing should be the basis for any discussion on what "change" means.
David Crowder has an excellent ending to their new CD "Remedy" (sorry for the plug) entitled "Surely we can change". The purpose of it revolves around "WE". I think that is the point where the discussion begins. "WE" are the A/G and we can make the change. But first we have to look to ourselves, what can we change? I realize I'm rather late in posting this in light of the new discussion but I thought it was worth mentioning.
How bout them Patriots by the way? GB leads NYG by 4 as we speak...don't know which I would rather play? Any thoughts? Is Green Bay "change"? ;)
m@
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