I am wondering what cool and innovative series you are all doing. We at High Point are starting our series later than we would have liked but I am excited about it and what it will mean for our church. I would have ideally liked to have launched it on our fall high attendance which is the third Sunday in September. That just seems to be a good season for everyone in our community.
We sent 25,000 of these out to the community... We give a free movie ticket out to those who visit the church... (we meet in a movie theatre) 
All of us need RESCUING at times…
All of us need RESCUING at times…
be it in our personal lives, our family, our career or our world. High Point Church invites you for this original series that will explore what it truly means to be rescued. Through the eyes of our local first responders (Paramedics, Police, Fire, Red Cross) we’ll see how God can rescue us and use us to rescue our world.
October 7 / Rescue Me - Paramedic... Salvation
October 14 / Domestic Disturbance- Police... Family issues
October 21 / Burned Out- Fire Fighter... Life stresses
October 28* / Disaster Relief- Red Cross... World issues
*Red Cross blood drive following service.
What are you doing that is fun and innovative to bring your community to your door or to bring your people to the community?
65 comments:
Tory,
We did a series this summer called "Detours". We had a lot of construction going on here in our small town so detours were on everyone's mind.
It was a four part series that included these topics...
Part 1-Detours Are Invetible!
We all face detours in life...spiritually speaking as well. We must learn to trust God as He leads us.
Part 2-Detours: Slowing Down!
When we encounter detours we have to slow down. This causes us to reflect and consider...If we really want to know God we must be still and listen for His voice.
Part 3-Detours: Following The Signs!
If we aren't careful we can get lost trying to find our way. We must follow the signs. In the same we must follow and obey God's Word in order to stay on the straight and narrow path to eternal life.
Part 4-Detours: Worth It!
In the end everyone enjoys the detour after it's over. The finished project makes it worth it. In the same Jesus is at work in our lives shaping and molding us into His image. It's important that we don't grow weary doing good.
All in all in was a great series. We were even able to score some sweet road signs from the city as props. It was a lot of fun!
Right now we are going through a book of the Bible one chapter at a time. We are trying to choose topics from each chapter that are applicable to our church body.
A couple of series we have in the wings waiting to happen is one on "Mythbusters" which include topics like...Good People Go To Heaven...I'm In Control...I Can't Share My Faith...etc.
Hope that helps...Love the idea of the "Rescue" series.
Blessings!
Jamie
Awesome. The TV show is hot right now. People will identify with it. Consider it stol... I mean, borrowed. :)
Our church isn't very hip to what is going on in the church world at large, so while the iron is hot, and before it becomes too common, I'm going to do a "confessions of a pastor" / "naked pastor" themed series in February 2008.
We are doing a "Deal or No Deal" themed stewardship/finance series this November, and a "Songs of Christmas" themed series in December.
In January 2008 we are doing at three week "Faith, Hope, Love" series.
I am really new at doing sermon series, and planning out this far in advance, but with three services a week each with a different message (total insanity!) I had to learn to start doing this.
This week we are starting a series called My Family...whatever!.
Part 1: Does God Care? The contrasts between the good and the bad in family, the dream of marriage and family contrasted with the reality of life. God's point of view on the family.
Part 2: Man vs. Women? What are the real roles of man and women in a modern family? What about dual income families? What about stay at home dad's? How does the bible really define things?
Part 3: I am man...I think? Getting through life without everyone hating you. What is being a man? What is being a godly man?
Part 4: Woman. The beauty, tenderness and the strength of God. God created something very special and complex in women.
Part 5: Parents...guaranteeing the future of therapist everywhere. How to really mess up your kids or something like that.
When the Holy Spirit is falling on
a congregation and lives are being
touched and changed "innovative
ideas" won't be necessary. This
happens and begins hopefully from
the pulpit to the door.
What's next copying the TV
Program Dancing with the Stars?
This is exactly why Revival is
taking place in countries that
have relied on a move of the
Holy Spirit and not the games
we are seeing the emerging church
realm here concentrate on.
We are currently in the middle of a "not so easy" button series featuring a list of not so easy topics.
christian-life.com
What happened to exegetical preaching? What happened to taking a book of the Bible as a series and preaching from it, say for 3, 6, 12, or even 24 months? Is it all about a "series" or preaching from the Bible, the way the Bible was written.
Just my thoughts, as a church attender/layperson who enjoys hearing preachers preach deap from the Word of God, verse by verse, and applying it to our lives today, especially from the historical point in which it was written.
Steve
Springfield, MO
I am not a pastor, just a body that fills a seat of an AG church. 28, married, kids.
Whatever happened to starting with exigetically moving from start to finish of a book of the Bible? We are all so biblically ignorant because of the topical nature of these cliche, self-help series. My church just wrapped one up--besides feeling burned out, I didn't learn a thing, and that's a shame.
For a group that defines itself as 'Sola Scriptura' the content of our sermon series would suggest otherwise.
Earlier this year I did a series called, "Chazown." That is the Hebrew word for vision. It was basically getting vision for our relationship with God and others, our financial life and our physical life. I got the idea from Craig Groechel. It was a great series.
Right now I am doing a series called, "Close Encounters of the Divine Kind." This series is about people who had life changing encounters with God and were changed (Moses, Isaiah, Paul, Peter, etc.)
People really do seem to grow through these series. We have to relate to people while still preaching the truth. That's what Jesus did!
Hey Tory...
OK, I'll bite and play the part of the antagonist if, for no other reason, than to inspire discussion on the continued issue of relevance and it's hotly-debated cousin, "contextualization."
First, are you truly able to advertise your series as "original?" Your title, and graphic are direct pulls from a TV show. Incidentally, did you guys receive copyright permission to alter this graphic for advertising? Not trying to be mean, but think that the church needs to be VERY careful in this arena. Plagiarism in our sermons and copyright infringement in our graphics taint our witness.
Additionally, is it wise to use a show so blatantly lewd and graphically-sexual as your referent? As a former EMT, I was excited when the series premiered. I made it through 2 episodes. The conviction from the Spirit changed from telling me the content was bad to discipline for trying to block His voice since I REALLY wanted to like the show.
Trust me, I'm not a prude when it comes to contextualizing the Gospel, ... but there is a line somewhere. I doubt anyone would support a series entitled "Jesus Does Jerusalem," (forgive me, God!). I only write that to illustrate that there is such a thing as "out-of-bounds" when it comes to illustrating the Gospel with secular references. The question is, where is the line?
We did a series recently that had, as a special, Alanis Morissette's song, "Thank U." The lyrics were perfect for the point we were trying to make that the pain of your past can be your greatest friend in the character it develops in you. We had the soloist lined up, the lyrics memorized, and the date we would integrate it. Then a member of my CPT called my attention to her music video readily accessible on YouTube which she does in the "artistic" nude. I scratched the song. I just didn't feel the "referent" was safe. A person is moved by the song, wants to hear it again... checks YouTube for the video, and wah-lah... they're asking me for a copy of "Every Man's Battle" the following week.
When I worked in web-design for Houghton-Mifflin publishing while in seminary, I had to observe a "safe-rule" the company had for our children's-based website, Eduplace.com. The rule was called the "3-Click Policy." This meant that any external link we, as web designers, wanted to incorporate had to remain "family-friendly" for a total of 3 clicks out from that link. Should we, as the church, have some sort of similar policy for people who try to follow our concepts back to their original source?
Not knocking your overall subject matter of what looks to be a promising series, ... just wanted to inspire some dialogue.
Do these mass-marketed, topical sermon series build the church or community of believers or do they build a religious business? Are they deep and rich in thought and kingdom principles that require one to consider how they live, or do they exist merely to build self-esteem and entice people to return the next Sunday?
I'm not trying to cast stones or cause disruption, but merely to employ the Socratic Method in this dialectic, and hopefully to inspire thought and debate about how we do things, especially in regard how we 'grow' a church.
I am a mid-thirties, post-modern who has virtually no use for these type of topical sermons. Give us something that we will have to 'chew' on during the coming week.
Of course Jesus only preached exegetical messages--he would never take common images from the everyday lives of his listeners to make spiritual points. He always asked people to stand for the reading of the Word and quoted chapter and verse and explained every OT passage to his hearers! Modern preaching is just that a product of modernity! The best case against continuing to do what we've always done in the AG is the admission that AG people are Biblically illiterate! The gospel was never intended to be read--it was intended to be lived. How difficult is it anyway for the average believer to master the basic truths of God's word anyway? We spend lifetimes teaching paragraphs from Scripture while the pastors spend 3-5 years studying to master all of Scripture. Why don't we teach Biblical theology (college level) and OT & NT studies (college level)--so that our churches are not full of spiritual midgets. You say you're followers of Jesus--yet your preaching bears no resemblances to any biblical preaching.
A different Steven from Springfield
Thoughts on the broader discussion taking place:
when Paul was with those under the law he acted like one under the law. When he was with those not under the law, he acted like one not under the law. When with the Romans, like one from Rome...etc. I imagine that affected the way he spoke in those churches as well.
Incidentally...we are beginning a new series called "Things that make you go hmm". We are exploring questions that people have about our church experience but maybe have never thought of asking. I had the congregation submit questions for a few weeks to give us some talking points to make sure we were hitting on the actual questions out there. so far we are looking at why we pray, why we sing, why we take communion, why we give and why we need spiritual gifts.
I don't think you can assume, because of a title, that a message will only be surface and not delve into deep issues. I've been pastoring my church for two months and people can't believe how deep we are going through a message series titled "My Bourne Identity"...making obvious reference to the movie. Today we looked at commitment through the story of Ruth, and tied that into the national day of prayer for the peace of Jerusalem.
We are also primarily looking at the sunday morning church experience...is that they only time your church people...maybe even you, are devoting to growing in Christ? I've found that you will not be able to effectively reach the lost and mature the saints fully in 1 service per week. What other options are we providing for our congregants to become a disciple?
Ryan
Tory, great post! and great ideas for the RESCUE ME sermon series!
Anonymous(x2) - as pastors, it is CRUCIAL that we are CREATIVE. We should model ALL of our ministry after Jesus Christ, and He was in touch with the CULTURE of His time.
In Luke 13:3-5 he used the 'pop topic' of the tower in Siloam as a reference point for heaven and hell, then preaching repentance.
In Matt 22:15-22 Jesus is on the 'pop topic' of taxes and Caesar, teaching lordship, ownership and finance principles.
No doubt, another 'pop culture' phenomenon would have been the Pool of Bethesda (John 5). I could imagine the TV shows now featuring David Blaine. But Jesus went there on a mission to heal.
Jesus never avoided 'pop culture' and focused strictly on the Word. He went after 'pop culture' and brought the Word (Himself) to those topics and situations.
Also, when I was 19 yrs old and first gave my heart to Christ, I doubt that I would have attended a church that was in the middle of a 24 month exegetical sermon series on Jeremiah. just being honest.
But I probably would go to Tory's church :-)
Lord, let the creativity of Your Spirit be released upon Your preachers! Give us fresh ideas!
Chris Griffin
Allison Park, PA
Steve,
I think your comments are important. Although the sermon series I referenced in the beginning of these comments was topical I have really started to see a lack of balance in preaching(including my own)today.
There does seem to be an overemphasis on self-help teaching from pastors as opposed to teaching and preaching Scripture. I can't help but think it stems from our desire to "give people what they want".
Jesus didn't always tell people what they wanted to hear. Many times people left because what He had to say was hard to accept(John 6).
Our passion must be to preach the truth!
For the last couple of months I have been preaching through the book of Mark and I just wrapped up my 7th message yesterday. I have to be honest and say that it has been exciting studying one book of the Bible together as a church.
The great thing about expository preaching is you know where you are headed each week and I have found that as I study God's Word the Holy Spirit keeps laying messages on my heart. In other words I haven't had that, "what am I going to preach on next" feeling.
Just some more thoughts to add to the discussion!
As far back as the beginning of the AG people have been suggesting the connection between film and preaching. It certainly compares to Jesus’ use of images from his culture in his preaching:
“In these early years, the church an Hollywood seemed to be mutually reinforcing each other’s needs and values…Jump [1911] compared the religious possibilities of the movie to Jesus’ use of parables, particularly the dramatic story of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:30-37:
• And new we come to the point: the objections which you and others thus make against the religious use of motion pictures can all of them be urged with equal force against the use of the most convincing parable which the Christ ever uttered. The films that have value for religious education today are those which portray truth as the Good Samaritan portrays it—in a dramatic story, of contemporary experience, exciting in character thus interesting even to the morally sluggish, picturing negative elements such as crime, accident, ignorance, sin, and thus commending itself as true to life, but in the end showing the defeat and expulsion of these negative elements by positive qualities, virtuous souls, God-like traits.
Jump encouraged his fellow clergy to use movies in their Sunday Schools, evangelistic outreach, social ministry to the needy, and sermons, as well as in providing entertainment for their parishioners.”
From “Real Spirituality—Theology and Film in Dialogue” by Robert Johnston
Steve Smallwood
BALANCE -- that has been a key word in my life. I believe we can preach the Bible (verse-by-verse or a chapter at a time, etc.) and be very relevant to our culture. I don't know any other book that is more culturally relevant. I had a professor at AGTS that always said, "The only bad method is the one we use all the time." Let's preach the Word AND let's do it creatively!
At the same time I do not believe that we have to borrow all our ideas from the movies and television. We need to be creative and original. The God of the universe through His Holy Spirit is very capable of giving us ideas that work! If we seek Him for help, He will help us individually and corporately.
I hope and pray this site continues to be an sharing and encouraging site.
This is the first Steve from Springfield, MO commenting again.
Although I questioned as to the reasoning for the emphasis on series vs. preaching exegetically as a series, I won't say I am totally opposed to a series, but this should be the abnorm, and not the norm. There is a time and place for a topical series, but preaching the Word of God should be our emphasis. We should be on our knees asking the Holy Spirit to draw in those that are lost, instead of spending all our time creatively mustering up a series that, without prayer, will have not affect.
As a layperson, I want to learn the depth of Scripture, not just hear a series based on this movie, that show, this event, etc. on a regular basis. I want to listen to a book be preached, and not on the surface, but verse by verse, over a span of time. And I see this being done, and I see people being saved through this style of preaching weekly.
Once again, this isn't to condemn a series, but in my opinion, this should be used very occasional, as the church laypeople want to learn the Scriptures, not just on the surface, but through depth, which is accomplished verse by verse.
In the end, it isn't how creative we are, but how much we are used by the Holy Spirit, whether He chose to use us on an occasional series, or through exegetical preaching.
Steve
Springfield, MO
Chris,
You said,
Also, when I was 19 yrs old and first gave my heart to Christ, I doubt that I would have attended a church that was in the middle of a 24 month exegetical sermon series on Jeremiah.
Why, exactly, should we tailor our worship service to fit the desires of a brand new (albeit, immature) Christian? It's one thing to address the needs of a culture; it's another thing to cater to its wants. Instead of coming up with supposedly creative topical series that simply mimic what the secular culture produces, why not rest on the word of God?
Jesus didn't tickle the ears of the culture in order to draw crowds. Wasn't he the fulfillment of the Law? Didn't he confound the Pharisees with his knowledge of the scripture? Aren't the Gospels intended to demonstrate that he was the Messiah (i.e., the fulfillment of OT prophecy)?
We shortchange our culture (po-mo or modern) by expecting them to live on junk food. I believe that they are capable of handling much, much more.
If Jesus is the Son of God, then the contents of the entire Bible are his words. We would do well to use what he has given us. And while we can certainly learn from the methods that Jesus used, should we really model our ministries after him or, say, Paul? After all, Jesus' purpose was distinctly different than that of the apostles. He commissioned them to build the church... isn't that the role that pastors should be mimicking?
There does seem to be an overemphasis on self-help teaching from pastors as opposed to teaching and preaching Scripture.
And where do you see that kind of teaching mainly coming from? You guessed it - the wacky word of faith "Pentecostal/Charismatic" camp. Churches that employ very creative means to preach the Word of God like Northpoint, Newspring, Flamingo Road, Revolution Church (California and Georgia) are very, very strong Biblically.
Its the weirdo Pentecostals that should no better that have gotten into the "pop-psychology" bandwagon.
I am not here to argue for or against topical, narrative or exegetical preaching. I think they all have there place and would challenge a pure exegetical preacher to try a topical and vise versa. The main concern I have is less about what we say because I think that we all probably preach great material. My concern is life change. I don't get up on Sunday to give people information. I don't have time. It isn't the place. I stand up there and challenge them to move; to get up from where they are at and get out there into the world as salt, light and leavening. I challenge them to leave there cursed life for a life abundantly that Jesus came to offer. Finally I challenge them to use the head knowledge they have and leverage it to bring there friends and families to Christ and the church.
I always thought Jesus wanted to build his church. I was under the impression that a growing strong church fulfilled His vision for what heaven would be like. It is messy, it isn't perfect, but Last week 12 of the 130 people in the room gave there hearts to Christ. That is a pretty good percentage. One lady was weeping the entire way through the message.
Our next series is called Freakenomics- the inside out, upside down economy of God.
-The First shall be last
-Give to receive
-love those who persecute you
Lets hear who else has some great new innovative ideas?
Wow,
Lot's of strong feelings in this topic. :)
I guess how you put together your sermons for Sunday AM or your main service really depends on your goal for that service. Our goal is not to challenge the mature believers in the Sunday morning service. Our goal is to provide the Word in the form of ideas that people (non-Christians/or detached Christians) can relate to and that people can understand. It is an introduction to the faith and encouragement to the weak and hurting.
We have other times to challenge the long term Christians. Small groups, night meetings and most importantly the challenge that the "temple worship" on Sunday isn't the focus of your Christian experience. Jesus walked with the disciples for about 3 years and then gave them the Holy Spirit to help and then let them struggle through a lot on their own. We are trying to teach our long term Christians that maturity in your life will depend a lot on the amount of effort you personally put into seeking God through prayer, worship and the Word. If you have been a Christian or you are mature and your are still getting your only meal for the week on Sunday, GROW UP FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!
We get filled with the Spirit who can guide us in all truth yet we focus on the 30-40 minutes of teaching by the Pastor on one service to determine the maturity of our faith????
How many "sleeper services" do we have on Wednesday night that cater to a crowd that wants depth in the Word...yet hasn't even learned to serve and use their gifts in or out of the temple. We canceled ours by the way, we are now reaching more kids on Wednesday nights then we have on Sunday AM, we need our mature Christians to get involved in reaching our community. I rarely hear from people that are highly engaged in ministry and actively being used by the spirit (in and out of the temple) complaining about "Pastor we need more meat!" It is mostly those that aren't being challenged in their own personal lives or aren't being challenged in personal ministry.
This is a generalization. If you truly are needed more challenge, talk with your Pastor (he/she would love to help you on this path) make it about you though not about what you think everyone else should have. Get involved in teaching and discipling someone, take a Biblical Language course, take a Global University course, but most importantly live the Word you already have in your heart.
Alright...sorry for the rant. Life is too short to not call it how I see it.
If we are going to truly be like Jesus in our method of teaching I suggest we see exactly how HE taught/preached. I seem to recall that He smacked the religious around, called them vipers, chased them out of the temple because they made the temple a "holy Wal-Mart" where you could get your sacrifice or offering right there and it didn't cost you one of your flock at home. Yet the lost are the ones that He taught in Parables, stories that related to their everyday life. If they had had Dish Network back then, He probably would have used that and gained many examples from it. He probably would have taught the lost with series just like the ones that some of you are slamming!! Have we not realized as pastors that we get basically one shot a week to reach some people, the lost ones. If we don't use every creative gifting that God has placed in us to do that then we do not use all the gifts and abilities that God has given us and that is a slap in His face and the face of those we are trying to reach.
If you use Sunday morning to feed the sheep then you are missing the point of what that opportunity affords you!! There are Sunday School, Life Groups, Home fellowships, Life Lessons, or whatever you call your discipleship opportunities, to grow and feed the sheep. Use every moment you can to get the Gospel into people. BUT use the method that is most effective in seeing life change please. If that is topical to get their attention and push, no lead them into a relationship with Jesus then do it. If you can honestly say that you see more people saved by preaching exegetically, then do that! Just don't get on a high horse and tell others that they are wrong for doing what they feel is what God would have them to do!!!
I seem to remember that "back in the day" there were only 4 subjects to preach on and that was in every sermon. And you know what those are!!! The 4 Cardinal Doctrines of the Church, for all you Royal Rangers out there!!
Preach on people, preach on!! Topically, Exegetically, Textually, or whatever!!
I probably used the term exegetical instead of expository earlier. If I did then forgive me, if I didn't then forget this post!!
I believe the question was: "What are you doing that is fun and innovative to bring your community to your door or to bring your people to the community?"
Why can't we stick to the questions asked and not get into all this debate whether we are for or against creative methods, etc.? Just additional proof there is such a divide among those calling themselves A/G.
Back to the question.
I plan to use the DEAL NO DEAL theme leading up to Easter. I know the title is being used by many. But maybe these topics for that series are not as overused.
Week 1 - Daniel and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego all said "NO DEAL"
Week 2 (Palm Sunday) - Jesus tempted in the wilderness - He said "NO DEAL!"
Week 3 - (Easter) Jesus on the cross could have saved himself. He said "NO DEAL!"
Week 4 - Zacchaeus said "DEAL" and salvation came to his house.
Probably the biggest reason I push for expository preaching is the utter lack of scriptural knowledge amongst not only evangelical Christians, but many pastors as well. How many times do we hear Jeremiah 29:11 taken completely out of context? Or, how about hearing that the story of Jesus calming the storm means that he can calm the storms of your life? Other out of context classics are: wherever two or three are gathered; be still and hear my voice; etc.
If the pastor of a flock can't provide a substantive exposition of God's Word, then that pastor shouldn't be preaching. You claim that mature Christians shouldn't expect to get their meat for 30 or 40 minutes on Sunday morning, but should expect to get such teaching at a small group or by participating in a ministry outreach. If the pastor is unable to deliver solid teaching, then what chances are there that a layperson small group leader will?
The sad thing is that most of our flock are Biblically illiterate. The sadder thing is that most don't care... as long as their wants are met. Try to get some solid attendance at an in-depth Bible study nowadays (not the sit-in-a-circle "studies" which end up being faux-support group sessions).
I taught two separate classes on Stand to Reason's controversial Decision Making & the Will of God series and the group of people that understood it best were the older (i.e., 50+) Christians.
The cute, reality-based sermon series, pitched by Hawaiian shirt clad Pastors in flip-flops will bring in the crowds, but will it ground them? Truth be told, I've resorted to consummating my worship with teaching by the likes of R.C. Sproul, John Piper, Greg Koukl, Jim Bradford, and John MacArthur.
instead of spending all our time creatively mustering up a series that, without prayer, will have not affect.
That's awful arrogant of you to think that any of these pastors have not prayed concerning the series of messages they bring.
Very foolish comment. You should go pray.
Will ...
Our pastor does straightforward expository preaching. There are few stories, almost zero pop culture references, and guess what? Rare is the Sunday that there isn't a significant response to the call for salvation, regardless of the sermon topic. On the Sunday he preached from Corinthians about women wearing head coverings, of all things, 16 people made decisions for Christ. That's the rule, not the exception. Incidentally, this pastor always gives a clear, concise, and non-manipulative presentation of the gospel, and is careful to provide solid follow-up / discipleship opportunities. The congregation has experienced significant growth, especially among young adults / young families. My point is, the pastor uses Sunday mornings both "to feed the sheep" and reach the unchurched, too. It is possible.
No, expository preaching is not the only method, and I'm not against mining pop culture in order to introduce or reinforce a message. But I do think you're overstating your case when you say Jesus "probably would have taught the lost with series just like the ones that some of you are slamming." True, Jesus was well-versed in the culture in which he lived, and he wisely and judiciously drew examples from everyday life as illustrations. But he was no slave to culture in his communication. He used it as a framework, but his message went well beyond the culture of that day and that area.
To say "if we don't use every creative gifting that God has placed in us to [reach the lost] ... that is a slap in His face and the face of those we are trying to reach" is, again, over the top. Look, sometimes creativity helps drive home the message to your hearer, but other times, it can get in the way. Let's be culturally sensitive, yes, but also spiritually sensitive. "A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver."
To those irritated that the topic has generated what I would call "deeper" issues... please be careful lest this great blog jump the shark.
The genius behind a blog is similar to that of a university campus... it inspires open and honest dialogue through which we learn and are sharpened. For me... a discussion about appropriate contextualization of the gospel and proper use of the pulpit is, by far, better than a list of how we have each turned our favorite TV show into a sermon series by ripping off the graphic and forcing the theme onto the Scriptures.
I'm all for creativity (see my earlier responses on open-source material). But please tell me you want more than a simple response list of how we have each modded a TV show into a sermon series.
I'd rather watch paint dry.
Art Good:
You totally took what I said out of context. Read it in context with everything I said. The same applies to the expository preacher as well, prayer is just as important to that preacher vs. the "creative series" preacher. Please take it in the context in which I made my post, which wasn't judgemental, which your response to me is appears judgmental, calling me a fool and arrogant.
My concern is that there are preachers more concerned about creatively preparing a sermon than they are being led by the Holy Spirit and preparing themselves in prayer for the preparation and delivery of the sermon (and once again, this conern can apply to any type of preaching style).
There have been posts here that point to the fact our church members/attenders are becoming Biblically illiterate. That is so true. Let's preach the Word, and education them on the Word of God, the whole Word of God.
Steve
Springfield, MO
"That's awful arrogant of you to think that any of these pastors have not prayed concerning the series of messages they bring."
While I was not the one who made that comment, I have been on a staff where we would sit in a meeting and throw out sermon series ideas. The senior pastor then found series on these subjects from the usual suspects (Young, Jr., Groeschel, Stanley), and preached them.
I don't want to cast a wide net or suggest anyone here does that, especially since I do not know them personally, but, unfortunately, it does happen.
Or, how about hearing that the story of Jesus calming the storm means that he can calm the storms of your life?
Your right. That story had no relevant, present day application unless you just happen to be on a lake and a storm arises and you've got Jesus sleeping in your pontoon.
I don't like water. Man, I've got a lot of Bibles to cut that story out of since I'll never need it... where's the scissors?
Steve,
Forgive me for being judgmental. The reality is we are quick to judge on both sides of this discussion, and most of it is based on personal preference and conviction. I know of many churches that are using creative and innovative means, including teaching series, that are reaching thousands of people for Christ. One church in Florida recently grew by 1000 people in one week's time due to a very creative idea that they are using. 1000 people! I know this pastor prays and seeks God concerning his church's ministry and his teaching. No doubt about that whatsoever. I hear of churches that are very innovative in ministry and teaching that are baptizing hundreds at a time.
From my perspective, I don't know a church that is purely expository in preaching that is making that kind of an impact. Not one. Maybe James River, but I would suggest their growth has a lot more to do with outreach and evangelism than it does with the preaching - and John Lindell is a great preacher.
The problem with an open blog like this is that it gets sidetracked. I wish we all would have just answered the question that was asked. If anyone didn't have an answer then why bother to give a response that was off-track?
One thing all of us forget to say is this...in my opinion or this is how I feel, or this is what I believe to be true.
There is NO hard truth to a style, I believe textual messages can be just as deep than an expository message. I also think that whatever you preach you need and must put a great deal of study behind the message and make sure everything is in context.
Here is my question though...who are you trying to reach...Jesus came to seek and save the lost. It is my goal and mission as a pastor to seek and save the lost. We need to be a hospital to the sick (old pentecostal term there). What I like to hear is different than what is going to reach those that are far from God.
I do believe God's Word can transform a life and I also believe God's Word can and will form a life. However if many of AG churches are only seeing two or three lives saved in one year, we must do something different.
These debates and arguments are going no where over methods, however I hope and pray we keep talking about the Greatest Message, the Good News. We must be willing to seek and save the lost in their language...kind of like learning the culture and language of a foreign land as missionaries.
Doesn't the Word say we are foreigners and aliens of this world? Well we better learn the culture and language or we will have no voice or influence in this world.
Just think about it. God's Word is more powerful than my style, than my words and my thoughts. It is His word that penetrates our hearts. Please stop dividing over styles or we will all lose the fight.
Chris
Good stuff Tory,
We decided to answer the humanistic book by Rhonda Byrne's book called "The Secret." If you want notes, I'll send them to you. Here's the sound byte:
"The Real Secret"
Over two thousand years ago a secret was revealed to the world for the very first time. There were those who tried to hide it; to keep it from being known, but the secret kept spreading. Some tried to kill it; to bury it away, but it could not be contained. The secret was out and the powers that came with it spread all over the world. Today millions live by it, but there are still millions more who don't know its power. In this series, you will discover the Real Secret and its power to change your life and your future.
The Real Secret - The Secret Revealed
The Real Secret - The Secret Made Simple
The Real Secret - The Secret to You
The Real Secret - The Secret to Life
The Real Secret - The Secret to Wisdom
The Real Secret - The Secret to Money
The Real Secret - The Secret to Relationships
The Real Secret - The Secret to Success
Steve- I am glade to discover why my church is not growing in 50+ Christians. If I would just teach more like you then I am sure that I could attract more Christians that are 50+. I am going to have to think about that.
Until then I am really excited about the 12 people who were under 50 and unchristian that gave the heart to Christ on Sunday.
Lane-
1) the show- we didn't do this series as a rip off of the show. we had an idea that we would use the shows title in the beginning. The original series was actually based off of "Rescue 911" but it didn't ring like "Rescue me" did. We collaborated with another church in town to finalize some of the wording and ideas.
I liked the fact that people who watch the show will realize that the guy who is rescuing others needs the most rescue himself. I had hoped that people would realize that we are giving them an opportunity to come and be rescued. I think it worked. 10% of the adults on Sunday responded for salvation. Pretty good %. As to the nature of the series... We didn't show clips or reference it in any way... we didn't need to because we brought in our own first responders.
The only people who have issue with this series or the show we are stealing the title for (of which the NLT psalm 50 uses it as well)are Christians. I am OK with them not liking this series as long as the unchristian do. So far it has been an awesome series devoid of the controversy in my church that there is on this post.
2) I think that a post on creative series ideas is important. Because I think that we have great ideas that are rumbling around this fellowship that are not getting air play like some of the big non AG dogs are. I value your input and creativity. But more than just a good series I want to know how you connected with the community around you.
3) I am trying to generate more ideas. This was posted for two reasons. 1st to see what else is going on because I need more ideas. 2nd to show people what we are doing to grab the attention of our lost community.
To those who are concerned that they will have nothing to chew on after this series... I spent an hour with a family last night who is burned out... I have an appointment in a few hours with a guy who is in need of family rescue... I sat at a coffee table with a guy in our church who was in need of his heart to be rescued.
I guess I do not understand why some of you have problems with us reaching out to those in need... I feel like this series speaks to people in the way that Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman. He talked about water and I think we are still chewing on it today. I think we have learned about the scriptures for to long and done nothing with what we have learned.
We are as Andy Stanley coined... "Preaching for Life Change."
The only people who have issue with this series or the show we are stealing the title for... are Christians.
And there's the rub. I have made up my mind that I don't care anymore what "Christians" think. I don't care what music they like. I don't care if they want "more worship," "deeper teaching," or what have you. They can go by the latest Gaither CD and read their good ol' KJV. I told our church this Sunday I look forward to the day that we have more hell-bound sinners in the seats looking for Christ than Christians looking to criticize.
God help us... I hope that day comes soon.
Tory…
Thanks for responding. I appreciated the time you put into it.
Incidentally, I don’t have a problem with you wanting to reach out to those in need. I mean… wow, if that were true, I’d have to check my Christianity Membership Card, wouldn’t I? What I questioned was your methodology. And since you helped to initiate a blog to inspire dialog, I am hoping you don’t take issue with that, right? So in the spirit of that, let me re-ask my questions since they did not exactly get answered.
1. In the compassion-based creativity world, should copyright laws be adhered to? Put another way… since our objective is to reach the lost, are we as churches allowed to plead ignorance of the law? While I applaud the apparent success of your series, I fear that the money you collected in the way of tithes and offerings partly belongs to FX Networks. Your graphic was, well... forgive me... stolen. Unless of course you guys got the permission I asked about.
My point was, and still is, that God is not going to allow us a breach in integrity simply because it draws in people. Are we preaching for a “life change?” You bet… and we, the ones preaching, should be exemplifying the change we are talking about. This means us exhibiting honesty and integrity at even the smallest levels.
2. Is there an ethics line when it comes to using secular sources as our referents? I’m honestly looking for dialog here. Your statement, Tory, that you don’t care what the Christian thinks as long as the unbeliever likes it is a bit… well, for me…scary. How far do you follow that line of reasoning? I’m not asking you to cater to the crabby critics who find something wrong every given Sunday. But if you are now viewing your critics on this blog with suspicion simply because we want to challenge you… well, I hope that is not the case.
C'mon ... must we engage in sarcasm ("If I would just teach more like you then I am sure that I could attract more Christians that are 50+") or unfortunate stereotypes (" ... they can go buy the latest Gaither CD and read their good ol' KJV") to make a point? I'm not sure I like the tone this thread is taking. Can we aim for the high road? Doing so will add credibility to our arguments individually and to this blog as a whole.
Steve (yet another Steve from Springfield -- what are the odds?)
How am I overstating my case about Jesus using these same type of methods? When Jesus taught to and reached out to the lost He didn't go line by line of the Torah or Prophets. He taught them using everyday elements and situations around them so that they could clearly see the correlation between those things and heavenly things. I mean, the entirety of Luke 15 is nothing but 3 everyday stories or examples of someone, God, looking for and searching for the lost thing, people. I am glad that the expository approach works for your church. I know that the topical approach works for others and for yet another group a balance of both is what makes it click for their situation. My problem in all of this discussion is that there are a group of people who think that doing it their way is the ONLY way to do it, when that is blatantly not true!!! Jesus and Paul both used different styles depending on their audience at that moment. Both communicated the Gospel and BOTH experienced results. Why can't that be true today? Why does it have to be either/or instead of both/and?
As far as the creativity statement and us not using it being a slap in God's face and the ones we are reaching...God is very, very, very creative in all that He does. Look at the world around us, or even the face in the mirror. God was creative in creation, creative in sending Jesus, creative in sending the Holy Spirit to help us, creative in building us a home in heaven. Why should we not be creative in how we communicate the timeless truth of God's love for fallen humanity?
Question for those are opposed to anything but expository style preaching/teaching?
Do you eat the same thing for every meal? If the answer is no, which I suspect it will be, why limit the Spirit man inside of us to only one type/style of food? Jesus never did, Paul never did. Same food, different styles!! In my opinion! That's for you there Chris!! ;)
someone want to explain to me how addressing today cultural issues (I think the Bible might have done this in the OT and NT) and giving people Scriptural steps to deal with those issues self-help? Sounds like Bible help or God help to me!
Will Said on October 9: "If you use Sunday morning to feed the sheep then you are missing the point of what that opportunity affords you!! There are Sunday School, Life Groups,...to grow and feed the sheep."
This thought has haunted me for several days, and as a layperson in a church, I must comment on this. My preacher uses every service to feed the sheep. And through the feeding of the sheep (through preaching the Word, verse by verse, and yes on Sunday morning), I have seen hundreds of people saved over the years, probably well over a thousand. Why would I go to church if I wasn't going to get fed? That may be a bit strong, but I hunger and thirst to learn from the Word of God each and every service I attend.
We take for granted that our laypeople don't want to learn the Word, that they want to be entertained, amused, etc. on Sunday morning. We think the lost won't come to church or they won't get saved if we are feeding the sheep. Many only attend 1 service a week, and the sheep need to be fed during the service(s) they attend.
I have seen record salvations on some of the most awkward subjects when my pastor teaches verse by verse, but the Holy Spirit is doing His job, drawing the unsaved.
Once again, this doesn't mean a creative series doesn't have it's place. I have seen my pastor, who is very strong on preaching verse by verse, do a series once in awhile. But the most effective preaching where I have seen the lost get saved is through the verse by verse preaching of the Bible.
The Other Steve,
I can admit when i am wrong. I was wrong to revert to sarcasm. I was frustrated with the attitude that I feel grows in the Christian subculture of hunker down and deal with us only. The "Feed me" mentality that seems to have little action after words. It is like asking to have thanksgiving every weekend.
Every week needs to have milk and meet This should be a given in all of our churches. At High Point we have many people who come from church backgrounds where the pastor preached from the yearly passage or the liturgy and it meant nothing to there daily lives. I am sure it was good meaty content but had little application. So I guess that is the critical issue do our Sunday mornings weather topical, expository or narrative leave application. What do they do with what they have heard.
Lane...
Copywrite... We as Christians should fallow to copyright laws. We have the necessary licenses to my knowledge for what we use.
I used a designer that is not apart of my team. I assumed when we paid him everything was taken care of on his end as to where he got the graphic. I will check and verify.
Secular Ethics...
there is a line to what we use and what we do not use. It is unfortunately not cut across the board. I think it is a case by case situation. Jesus used a partially clad woman on the street... I would never use nudity. I am not about to use swear words or other material that might make another person stumble. I think that is the issue isn't it. Not what are the three click rules that make sure others are happy but how can we be careful not to make another person stumble. to my knowledge by using this series title we have not encouraged anyone to live the life that this fictional fire fighter on TV lives. When I spent a day at the fire house I did see that there were other men there that were living lives in need of Rescue. They were watching on cable "Basic Instinct" while the firefighter in my church and I made them dinner. I did not go into the other room and watch... I did not condone the action because I was in the fire house while they watched. I merely asked about there lives, represented Christ and am trying in a week to portray them in the most positive light possible.
Do you think they care that the title references a show that doesn't promote godly living or do you think they see us trying to get on there level and communicate the gospel in a way that they will find appealing.
I shouldn't have said "I don't care what Christians think"... I care what my wife, team and church think. I am not interested however in a church attender who has been in the church forever who is stuck in his/her way of thinking about how church should be. I want to know how many people they have brought to church in the last year that don't know the lord? I care what people who are regular bringing there un-believing Friends to church.
Our line... on Sunday morning does this without being offensive and condoning sin lead people to a fuller understanding of God and His son. If it doesn't even if it is the gathers... we don't use it.
Lane- I do value the discusion... I am not apposed to it I just don't think it is a problem to use this particular reference. We used a Nickel Back tune a while back and I questioned it for a moment because in one of there songs on that album they talk about oral sex. That song however so crystallized and spoke to the church what we were wanting to get across that I figured the radio play alone removed it from us condoning oral sex.
I know of an AG church in Milwaukee that showed "Thank You for Smoking" in its entirety to the church and then had a discussion time about it. It is an R rated picture with sex scenes and a tone of F words. For us... That was way to across the line. I don't know there reasoning.
So to sum it up...
- does it cause someone to stumble?
- is it condoning sin
- does it distract from the message
If Yes... then don't do it.
Tory,
Good points all around. I too revert to sarcasm when frustrated (Other Steve from Springfield... point taken to heart). If I have offended anyone in this community. I apologize.
I think somewhere I need to realize that just because I don't agree on issues of form, structure or tradition doesn't really make other opinions wrong or bad, it just makes them different. Many of us can disagree with each other and still be right from our point of view or preference.
To be clear... We used a song by Nickle Back that did not have questionable lines in it. There were questionable song on there album. I did not want you to think we used the song that had an inappropriate reference in it.
I have been listening to a great series on Podcast over the last few weeks. Matter of fact it is by one of the contributors to this site, Mark Batterson and NCC. By the way, thank you Mark for this series, "The Elephant in the Church". The message "The Circus Elephant" was especially meaningful to me in my particular situation. It has ministered to me personally beyond description. Back to the thought at hand. To anonymous...I have said and say again to you specifically, I am glad that your situation in your church is greatly impacted by a verse by verse style of preaching. Praise God. I do have a bit of a problem though with how much my statement has bothered you about feeding the sheep. I think there are times to feed the sheep, but I believe it is more important to teach the sheep to feed themselves. Listen to the podcast from Natianal Community Church for more on that. As pastor of my church I feel that it is my highest and most important calling to equip the believers to do the work of the ministry and win the lost. The way that I feel is personally most effective is to point the Sunday morning service toward the lost who may be there. As I have said before is there are a ton of opportunities to feed the sheep if you will. The lost are the most important to me, the church, and to Jesus I believe. Why should they not get the attention on Sunday mornings? Why should it always be about the ones who are already found? Why can't they get plugged into some sort of small group or discipleship opportunity apart from the Sunday morning service? (I agree 100% with what Heather Zempel communicated in the Series at NCC about the Circus Elephant.)
Art Good said (quoting me),
Or, how about hearing that the story of Jesus calming the storm means that he can calm the storms of your life?
and responded with,
Your right. That story had no relevant, present day application unless you just happen to be on a lake and a storm arises and you've got Jesus sleeping in your pontoon.
I don't like water. Man, I've got a lot of Bibles to cut that story out of since I'll never need it... where's the scissors?
I'm assuming your being sarcastic but, regardless, you illustrate my point well. When pastors tickle the ears of our culture they are forced to give people what they want to hear. They are forced to give sermons that are relevant to the lives of the listeners. They are forced to look at a Bible passage in light of how it has a present day application, instead of finding out what the passage means. So, instead of teaching that the point of the 'Jesus calming the storm' story was to illustrate his claim to being the Messiah, it's turned into a self-help, relevant, present-day application story in which Jesus has the power calm the storms in our lives. (sidenote: I wonder how many Christians, much less non-Christians, could explain to you what being the Messiah even means?)
But try selling a sermon, designed to illustrate why Jesus was the Messiah, to your church full of hell-bound sinners (and a few Christians) looking for sermons that are relevant to their lives. Oh, wait a minute, there's already 4 sermons designed to do just that... we even named them: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
People are not valuable simply because they are gospel fodder. They are valuable because they are made in God's image.
So Rusty if I preach a message stating that Jesus can calm the storms in a person's life that is in the congregation I am simply tickling their ears? The only reason that Jesus can calm those storms in their life is because He is the Messiah. It is interesting to me the dogmatic stance that so many take on here regarding issues. Perhaps this needs to be discussed as to how it affects our future as a movement.
Maybe we should examine an underlying assumption some pastors hold to -- that Christians who want to be "fed" are fat, do-little, "bless-me club"bers who get in the way of the "real" work of the church, evangelism. Here's my take on that:
1. In practice, those who attend the most services tend also to be the most involved in church ministry, including evangelism. They genuinely want to do, not just hear.
2. I think we've lost sight of the church's threefold mission, and thus may be -- dare I suggest this? -- overemphasizing evangelism to the exclusion of "[building] a body of saints being perfected in the image of His son." Read William Menzies' "Annointed to Serve" to see the need for missional balance in the 1960s that resulted in the AG adopting the threefold mission model.
3. I have a little trouble with Will's statement " ... the lost are the most important to me, the church, and to Jesus." Once someone recites the sinner's prayer, do they suddenly become less worthy of our attention? I know that's not what you're implying, but I've met those who have said as much. Regardless, when you read Paul's instructions on believers' gatherings (1 Cor 14 et al) you don't get the impression that they were designed primarily as evangelistic outreaches, although they certainly could accomplish that goal (verses 24-25). And who was more evangelism-minded than Paul?
Please don't get me wrong: Evangelizing the lost is critically important. It's just not the ONLY reason the church exists.
What think ye?
They are forced to give sermons that are relevant to the lives of the listeners. They are forced to look at a Bible passage in light of how it has a present day application, instead of finding out what the passage means.
Heaven forbid we would give sermons that are "relevant to the lives of the listeners," or "look at a Bible passage in light of how it has a present day application."
You are right. The Bible is irrelevant, and has no present day application. I am not going to waste another day with it.
Now... if I can just find my Book of Mormon, or maybe the Koran, I can find something relevant and that applies to present day life.
Good grief.
Anonymous, I couldn't agree more that when they say the sinner's prayer they don't become unimportant. I am simply saying that once that step is taken and they have asked Jesus to be their Savior and Lord, that there has to come a shift into some sort of discipleship lifestyle. That is, in my opinion, accomplished best in a small group setting. This gives them an opportunity to be connected with other believers who can help them along the journey of faith. I think if my understanding of the early church is correct that they met in each others homes as well as their meeting together as a large group. I don't think that all 3000+ squeezed into Peter's moms living room for church do you? Small groups didn't start in this century, they started in the 1st century!
As for the lost being the most important...Jesus himself said that He came to seek and save the lost. How can that not be the highest thing of importance to us as well? He reached out to the lost and hurting, discipled the 12, sent out the 70, and died for us all. Not to mention that He came down severely on those who were hypocrites, the teachers of the law. I am all for us building strong believers and grounded, disciplined followers of Christ. I just think that there is no one way to do it and anyone who says that there is ONLY ONE way to do it is severely ignorant of how Jesus and Paul actually reached out to the lost!! However God leads and guides one pastor to do it vs. the way He leads someone else to do it is great as long as we are obedient to HIM!! Topical series, Expository teaching, or Textual sermons are all fine and at some time should be delved into by all pastors. Let's get down to the bottom line of what is the big debate here. Some people don't like Topical series and feel that those who do utilize those in their setting are just tickling their hearers ears. That is a very bold accusation, and one that is baseless and unscriptural and you can't back it up by the Word that it is wrong. It's an opinion trying to be pushed as gospel. It's taste and style. If you don't like the way your pastor preaches/teaches then find somewhere where you do like it and leave the poor fellow alone. He is doing what he feels like is obedient to the leading of the Spirit.
As for the statement about the ones who attend the most being the ones most likely to work, I want to know where!! ;) I'll send in my resume there. The old saying is true, 20% of the people do 80% of the work and 80% of the people watch the 20% work. The 80% cry out there motto most of the time, "Someone else will do it!!" At least that has been my experience and I have been in church for all my life!!! And most of the time that someone they EXPECT to do it, the lawn, the cleaning, the bulletin, the painting, the wiring, etc., is the pastor. Lest some of you think I'm bitter or something, I LOVE what God has called me to do!!! I wouldn't do anything else!!!
I am blessed attend a church that preaches to the Christians on Sunday morning, and not just to the unsaved. And in so doing, those that are unsaved are having life changes, and making decisions to follow Christ. Evangelism is of high importance, and I would never downplay that, but as I have said repeatedly on this blog, I have evidenced this being done, and yes, on Sunday morning.
I am a layperson, and yes, I am active in my church, active in evangelism, and contrary to some thoughts here, I also want to be fed, have my family fed when I attend services. There is nothing wrong with wanting to learn more from God's Word. And yes, there are other avenues to be fed, and I use those as well, but I rely on my church to feed me.
I look at many of the big churches outside of AG circles, such as Andy Stanley, Willow Creek, Hagie, etc., and these preachers preach to the Christians, they educate the Christians, and people attend because they are hungry to learn God's Word.
I am blessed I attend a church that does this, and also blessed I attend a church where we see salvations almost every service.
Steve
Will Said: "Let's get down to the bottom line of what is the big debate here. Some people don't like Topical series and feel that those who do utilize those in their setting are just tickling their hearers ears."
Will, the bottom line as I see it from reading these posts is not the style of preaching (although some have argued that), but who we are basing our preaching to, the saved or the unsaved. To say that once you are saved you get your discipleship from small groups, that is not how I view the chuch. If that's true, let's just have crusades then, and not even have a church, and then educate everyone in the believers' homes. Very generic in thought here, but that's how I view it.
Jacob Spitz
Lakeland, Florida
What's the job of a pastor? To just win the lost, or to shepherd his sheep? Of course it is both. Too much emphasis from some pastors is to evangelize the lost. What happens to the lost once the are saved? They must be taught, and the example of teaching comes from the pastor. That's what the tithe payers are paying him to do, to evangelize and to shepherd the flock.
Reading these posts, I see pastors posting one direction, and the aren't listening to the posts of those that aren't pastoring. They are doing their own thing, defending themselves, and not listening to what their mature Christians are wanting from them. They are calling these posters arrogant, when they are acting arrogant themselves. Why would I want to attend a church with a pastor who has that viewpoint? Reading some posts from pastors makes me wonder sometimes why I would even want to attend an AG church.
Have we forgotten how much time Jesus spend with His disciples, discipling them, teaching them, etc. Yes, He did a lot of evangelism, but it was through teachings, and many times through parables that the people didn't even understand.
And Will, you are right, 3000 people didn't crowd into the Peter's living room. Maybe that's a good argument for a small church, maybe a pastor can't handle discipling/feeding a large church.
There are many immature people leading small groups, who I wouldn't want to be under their ministry for the bulk of my discipling. I look to the pastoral team for that, they are the ones we are paying to do that, for they are the ones with Bible College training, they are the ones who have time during the weeks to prepare themselves at a deeper level to teach and train their sheep. Yes, we are to all do that as well, we are all called, but the pastoral team is at a higher level, for that is why they are the pastors.
It's hard to put this all in writing, but Pastors, your sheep look to you for feeding, for discipleship, to be the example, etc. Listen to what your sheep are wanting, they want depth, not a watered down message, not a series based on the latest TV series on a regular basis, we want to learn God's Word!
Candace George, 33 years old, saved in 2006
I think it is important for us to check our hearts and churches. What is the 1 hour and 15 minutes for on Sunday? What are the other six days a week for?
We have to inspire and lead on Sunday. this includes both the saved and the unsaved. This may be a different philosophy for you but I have seen the power of getting people fired up about the weekend. I however can not accomplish everything I am trying to accomplish on the weekend.
- We need believers serving and bringing unbelievers
- My responsibility to them is to create a message that gives them something worth chewing on and leads the unbeliever one step closer to a life in Christ. I am amazed how in our society the believer and unbeliever need much of the time the same thing.
- But the next step is two fold. External living out what has been tought... in the world not in another service and connection and peer discipleship.
When our people are not coming on Sunday just for another meal rather when they are coming to parter with the mission of the church I think there is a powerful transformation in there life and the church. I know there will always be people who see the church as there buffet table. But I don't want them to stay there. I want them to actively prepare the place for the unbeliever. I think that is a healthy expression of Mission.
Our churches need to be more missions. Meaning we need at all levels to keep the mission in mind. from the message, ushers, Sunday school or small group to the board meetings. The mission is to seek and save that which is lost.
What is a Pastor?
That is a great question...
I tell my team that we as pastors are not hear to do the ministry. We are hear to prepare everything so that the lay people in our church can show up and serve and minister and pastor this church.
Jesus could only pastor 12. But he sent those 12 out and they pastored many more than 12 apiece.
" ... we need at all levels to keep the mission in mind. from the message, ushers, Sunday school or small group to the board meetings. The mission is to seek and save that which is lost."
That is indeed our mission -- but not our entire mission. Again, I point to the AG's stated Threefold Mission (it's posted at www.ag.org):
"The Assemblies of God is committed to fulfilling a threefold mission. Its primary reason for being is:
1. To be an agency of God for evangelizing the world
2. To be a corporate body in which man may worship God
3. To be a channel of God's purpose to build a body of saints being perfected in the image of His son"
Some, it would seem, are all about point #1 while consigning #3 to the periphery. In fact, all three priorities are central to our mission. If you're mainly about evangelism, then "feeding the sheep" might appear to be off-task.
Not to take away from your good post, Tony. You're right; the reason for building up the saints -- sheep -- is to prepare them for works of service -- to unleash them to fruitful ministry in a world that desperately needs Jesus.
Candace,
You have some very good points. I understand what you are saying. It is critical for the people to have a deeper understanding of the word and to grow to maturity.
Part of the conflict that we as Pastor's have is about the desire of the mature to be fed during the Sunday morning service. Many Pastors see this as the greatest opportunity to speak the gospel to the unbeliever or the non-mature because it is the only service they will show up to. Mature believers should be at other events and helping in the work of ministry.
We ask our mature believers to get involved in ministering and not look at the Sunday AM service as their time to grow to maturity but as a time to serve those that are in need. We have small groups that meet, we have two different prayer times on Sundays.
This is where Pastors ask their mature members to help out. To be understanding that the primary service may be the greatest opportunity to touch lives that are struggling or lost.
I am a Biblical Language guy and love to get into the deep exegetical stuff of the word. To look at things like Hebrews and the implications of Jesus as our way into the Holy of Holies. There are incredible and awesome things to discover about God and the Word. Many of the things I study to get a deeper understanding of God and for my maturity do not relate to the broken and hurting families that just need to hear that there is hope.
This is where the conflict comes in. Pastor's really want to reach these lost and hurting. They want to show them the love of Jesus, they want to help their lives be transformed and full of hope. What we get many times is not rejoicing in how to reach these people but complaining on how the meal (preaching) wasn't right or this or that. And we try talk with these people about getting involved in a small group or reaching out in their neighborhood or looking at all the other opportunities to grow to maturity. But more often then not we see an attitude that says, I want it for me on Sunday. That is the day I come so you need to feed me to maturity.
For those that come to us in sincerity and say Pastor, help me grow to maturity, help me learn the deep stuff of the word, help me grow and minister to other, in all seriousness, it absolutely makes our day. We would love to fill our calendars with those that want to grow.
For the most part it doesn't happen this way it happens with mean criticism and derogatory comments, made to leaders, to the Pastors family, to the pastors children, really I am not making this up. It doesn't become about the individual growing,in becomes about control, selfishness and division.
It doesn't always happen that way but then again like I said Pastor's love to have people come to them with sincerity and say, I am not being challenged enough, I need more.
This is a pretty long post, but I wanted to try and have you understand why some of us Pastors that want to be missional and reach the lost get very frustrated at all the battles we fight that really have nothing to do with what God has called the church to be.
Does this make sense? Any other Pastors want to chime in. I want to make sure that those that aren't Pastors understand some of the battle.
Candace, what you are saying is very valid and yes we are held at a higher level of accountability as Pastors. I want to ask you something though. You said "Have we forgotten how much time Jesus spend with His disciples, discipling them, teaching them, etc. Yes, He did a lot of evangelism, but it was through teachings, and many times through parables that the people didn't even understand." Isn't that what some Pastors are doing in their series that they prepare, teaching in "parables"? Why can't the series be deep for the found, yet profoundly simple for the lost? The answer is they can? Some just have to get the place in their life spiritually that they can dig a little deeper and find the sustenance their spirit desires, but that is hard. Some people just want someone else to shell it out for them. It's kind of like my 5 year old, we frequent a restaurant that has pizza on it's buffet. He wants my wife or me to cut it up into pieces for him so he can eat it. He's 5, he doesn't need his pizza cut up anymore, he can pick it up and eat it himself. If he was tall enough and able to he could get it off the buffet for himself too. As adults though we know where the restaurant is, where the plates are at, what we want to eat; all we have to do is go get it and eat. WE have to get it and eat. Same thing applies to church IMO.
I come from rural Oklahoma and have grown up around farms and have farmers/ranchers in my family. There is something that I believe people have a misconception of and that is the job of a shepherd. Modern day sheep farms yes the farmer, none of them are shepherds by the way, simply pour out the feed in a trough and let the sheep go at it. BUT, the shepherd that is depicted in the Bible did not. He LED the sheep to fields where they could feed, LED them to water, LED them to safety, and protected them and cared for them. He did NOT feed them though. They were lead to a place where they could feed themselves. I have a problem, albeit a personal one, with folks who claim to be "mature" sheep who insist on being fed. You feed babies, lambs and calves without mothers, and those who cannot physically feed themselves. Why do people think that the pastor is the only one who has to feed himself? Yes we get paid to preach to people, disciple people, handle the church with the utmost care and diligence, etc., but we also get paid to present the Gospel to lost people so that they might have opportunity to come to Salvation something that most of us would do and do for nothing because we are supposed to as believers.
You also made reference to immature people leading small groups. Sometimes that happens. It is up to the Pastoral staff in that situation though to make sure they have capable, mature people leading those groups that disciple other believers. Sometimes though it's unavoidable because no one mature will step up and do it because they still want to sit and eat instead of laying out the meat of the word for those not as far as they on the journey.
One more thing...for those that attend a church that still has Sunday night and Wednesday night services, aren't those services for those seeking deeper truth and more complexity in their spiritual diet? Oh wait, that would mean that folks would have to come to church or to a group more than one time a week!! Just kidding, OK maybe not. But I am not upset about it though.:D
Sorry for the novels the last couple of posts. These are questions and ideas that I have been mulling over for the last several weeks, even before this thread came up, and I know what and how I feel at this particular time. ;)
Chad:
Thanks for your comments and how you encourage the mature Christian to be participating in the Sunday Morning (more evangelistic) service. And I am still a maturing Christian, so I may have sounded a bit immature in my remarks.
I have one further follow-up? My church (and many churches) have 2 or more Sunday morning services, and all attenders are strongly encouraged by the pastor to attend 1 of those services, meaning we work/volunteer for 1 service and attend the other. That is why I was talking about wanting depth in the Sunday morning service. If it is shallow, as some posts that I have read support, I would have not desire to attend. To be honest, most of my learning has come from the Sunday morning sermons. I can't always make the other services, which is unfortunate, but being a nurse requires strange days and hours of work. And you know, Sunday night/Wednesday night is about 40% attendance of Sunday morning. It's not just the immature and lost who attend Sunday mornings.
Anway, thanks for your thoughts.
Will, thanks for yours as well. After reading your post, I must fall in the category of the Christian who isn't mature yet, as I still desire to learn from my pastor and be fed (or learn), from his hours of research that he takes every week learning the Word (along with his extensive college learning).
Candace George, 33 years old, saved in 2006
Candace,I applaud your desire to learn the word and be taught. I know that nurses work odd schedules at times. I guess I'm not communicating well today.
My question to you is this. Why would a topical series about everyday Christian living and following Christ in all that we do; our jobs, our families, and everything else not help those who are new (decided I don't like the tone that immature/mature send)to the faith and even the more seasoned? The answer is that they are beneficial to everyone at all levels of the journey of following Christ. I think that we seem to be stuck in a mode or rut of saying that if you preach topically, like the series that has been proposed here, that you are an ear tickling, shallow preacher and if you preach in a verse by verse expository style that you are somehow deeper and more qualified to preach (per Rusty when he said, "If the pastor of a flock can't provide a substantive exposition of God's Word, then that pastor shouldn't be preaching.") The truth is that God said that His word would never return without accomplishing what it set out to do, whether that is topically or verse by verse the Word will reach into the heart of the hearer and do it's work!!
Candace, I'm with you; good points in both your posts. Alas, I don't think the others are picking up on what you're saying. For my part, I resent being labeled "immature" for expressing a desire for teaching/preaching applicable to Christians.
Regardless of one's viewpoint on this subject, I think we would all benefit from re-reading each of the earlier posts -- a little more carefully this time, perhaps -- and better familarizing ourselves with what the "others" are saying. It seems that some viewpoints are being misrepresented and some fairly weighty comments are being disregarded altogether. Let's continue the discussion, if possible, without relying so much on generalizations (everybody generalizes!). "Be quick to hear, slow to speak ..."
One of the Other Steves
1. Where does or should ministries to the lost primarily occur?
2. Are church programs where ministry is primarily done in your church, or are pastors training 'the sheep' to be a witness as they live out Christ's teachings in the workplace, neighborhoods and schools, etc?
3. Is our focus of evangelism religious organization-centric or community-centric? Which do you think would be more effective in reaching the lost? Is the mission is to SEEK and save the lost, or is it to wait for them to come or be invited to our religious services.
Is the laity merely here to serve as volunteers to an agenda?
4. What is the purpose of a Sunday morning service?
a. Evangelistic outreach
b. Corporate worship and
gathering of believers
c. Combination of A & B
d. Corporate worship with evangelism as secondary or incidental as an unbeliever experiences this worship
5. Should pastors get out in the community, as Christ did, so that they can more effectively minister to the broken and lost, rather than waiting for a Sunday morning sermon to effect this change? Wouldn't leading by example speak volumes to one's congregants? Did Jesus have a staff member or volunteer wash his disciples feet? Was his ministry centered on the synagogues or Temple?
6. Have we confused the offices of prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher?
7. Have we reduced the Gospel to one that says that Jesus is here to serve us, rather than us serving him?
Just something to chew on...
Note: I submitted a response a couple of days ago that, evidently, either got deleted or lost.
Anonymous,
You asked, So Rusty if I preach a message stating that Jesus can calm the storms in a person's life that is in the congregation I am simply tickling their ears?
Not necessarily. What I am referring to is the practice of skipping over the public, intended meaning of the text (of scripture). Point of fact is that the story of Jesus calming the storm is not about his ability to calm the storms of our lives.* I've never stated that He is unable to calm the storms of our lives, just that this story isn't about that. But in the culture we live in, we expect to hear messages relevant to the needs (perceived) in our lives. Hence, it tickles our ears to hear that Jesus can calm the storms in our lives. Why not first teach on the text and its public meaning? What were the Gospels intended to convey? Then move into applications (still public) of the stories found in the Gospels. Finally, move into potential significance (private) the text may have. This methodology is simply good, detailed Bible study.
Contrast that with the emphasis on "relevance" we find today. Every time I get a mailer from a local church it's the same thing: Q. What can you expect to hear?, A. Messages that are relevant to your life.
* if it were, then we'd also have to teach that Jesus is asleep and needs to be woken up in order to calm those storms.
Art Good wrote (with my words in the quotes),
"They are forced to give sermons that are relevant to the lives of the listeners. They are forced to look at a Bible passage in light of how it has a present day application, instead of finding out what the passage means."
Heaven forbid we would give sermons that are "relevant to the lives of the listeners," or "look at a Bible passage in light of how it has a present day application."
You are right. The Bible is irrelevant, and has no present day application. I am not going to waste another day with it.
Now... if I can just find my Book of Mormon, or maybe the Koran, I can find something relevant and that applies to present day life.
Good grief.
Art, your immature sarcasm is really out of place here. As far as I'm concerned, such a display reinforces my belief that young pastors need good, solid mentors.
With regards to the "relevance" issue: what is relevant is that we are sinners in need of repentance. Our narcissistic culture expects to be catered to in pragmatically productive ways - the gospel is not some self-help methodology - yet when pastors cave in to the demands of culture they are then "forced" to provide what the culture wants (rather than what the culture needs).
With regards to the "present day application" issue: please try to quote me in context. In your paragraph you left out the entire last half of my sentence. If you look at, and read, what I wrote, then you should see that there is the word "instead", which ties to the novel notion of pastors actually teaching what the Bible passage means.
With regards to the "Bible is irrelevant" claim: Yeah, that's it. That's exactly what I said. That must be why I recommended that pastors use sermons based on the four books known as Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. For crying out loud! Have you not read any of my comments? To imply that I consider the Bible to be irrelevant is not only incorrect, it displays a considerable amount of ignorance.
I do not appreciate the accusation or implication that I consider the Bible to be irrelevant!
My whole argument rests on the premise that the Bible, being God's inspired Word, is PRECISELY what we should be teaching. And we should be teaching it as it was intended to be understood, which means hard work for the believer and even harder work for the pastor.
But... that wouldn't necessarily be cool and innovative and, save the working of the Holy Spirit, might not draw in the crowds, would it?
Rusty, I apologize for my sarcastic remarks. I know better than to get pulled into these kinds of discussions, and I went ahead and jumped head first in anyways.
I am convinced the Bible is the most relevant book ever written. I also believe it must be communicated in innovative and creative ways to speak not only to the lost of this generation, but to the Believers as well. No one wants to listen to a dead, dry sermon. Do I want to convey solid Biblical truth? Yes, absolutely. Do I want to do it with lecture style, three points and a poem expository preaching only? Absolutely not! It bores me, and I'm sure it bores my audience. I will use whatever creative, fresh, compelling, and innovative ways I can to preach/teach a timeless message full of solid Biblical truth. I will use cultural symbolism to get across a Biblical message any day of the week.
So, Rusty, I am not going to change your perspective, and you won't change mine. We will have to agree to disagree. God's best blessings to you.
P.s. Lest you think me shallow in my preaching/teaching: Two Sunday nights ago (yes, we have Sunday night services) I started a verse-by-verse expository series on the book of James. I even gave it a catchy title: "Study of James." :)
Art,
Thank you.
One of my many faults is that of finding people's buttons, and then pushing them with vigor (and sarcasm)... so I can relate.
I'm very glad to see that you use expository preaching, on a Sunday night! (with catchy titles, as well). That's wonderful! I certainly don't think we should purposely make sermons boring. I just get very wary of packaging scriptural truths in cultural presentations because it seems (to me) to be dangerously approaching evangelizing in a pragmatically capitalistic manner.
In what is probably too naive an attitude, I think that if the Bible is truly the inspired Word of God, then Christians should hunger for it and non-Christians would be drawn to it by the Holy Spirit. I once sat in an adult Sunday School class with Dr. Bill Williams (Vanguard University) and was literally astounded at the richness and depth inherent in the Hebrew renditions of the Old Testament books! Yet, Dr. Williams does not present his material in an exciting and charismatic manner. Indeed, many people would probably consider his delivery to be boring - and I find that very sad.
In what is probably too cynical an attitude, I rarely see Christians that have a desire to take the time to learn about God, about His Word, and about what it means to be a Christian. What I tend to see are Christians that are hungering for the experience of Christianity - and thinking that it is that "personal" experience that IS their Christianity. With such an attitude, I see many Christians that tend to relegate the true studying of God's Word to the backburner. So, my fear is that if "mature" Christians are so Biblically illiterate, what hope is there for the new converts we bring into the fold?
I think it was Francis Schaeffer who said that if he had only one hour to speak to a "modern man" about the gospel, then he would have to spend the first 50 minutes explaining to him why he needed to hear the gospel. In that context it makes sense to alter the delivery of the gospel message so that it is understandable to a sub-culture. And, actually, I don't have a problem with developing different means of conveying, as you state, solid Biblical truth.
While I don't agree with all the approaches presented here, I'll say one thing for the young pastors that have responded: Your desires, longings, and passion for the building up of God's Kingdom are strong, fervent and laudable. And do not despair, despite the ineptitude of us all, the gates of Hell will not prevail.
Certainly I'll agree to disagree. But where the rubber meets the road I don't think our perspectives are really that far apart. We both want Christ, and Him resurrected, preached to a lost world!
Blessings to you, Art.
P.S. if your church has a website, please leave the url, if you don't mind.
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